$9.3m scandal, Synanogue collapsed building: Why Oritsejafor, T. B. Joshua should be probed -Anglican Archbishop

In this interview with the Sunday Trust, the respected clergyman explained why he has been advocating for dialogue, rather than force to resolve the insurgency problem in the North-East. He also declared that the authorities should probe Pastors Ayo Oritsejafor and T.B. Joshua over the $9.3 million arms scandal and the Synagogue building collapse respectively […]

In this interview with the Sunday Trust, the respected clergyman explained why he has been advocating for dialogue, rather than force to resolve the insurgency problem in the North-East. He also declared that the authorities should probe Pastors Ayo Oritsejafor and T.B. Joshua over the $9.3 million arms scandal and the Synagogue building collapse respectively

You have been advocating for peace talks as a solution to the current insurgency. With the deterioration of the conflict, do you still hold the same view?
From the beginning, I have been advocating, and I still advocate dialogue. No matter what it means to us, people must sit down to talk.
Why am I convinced about this? This insurgency is not a northern Nigeria problem, it is not a Nigeria or an Africa problem, it is not just the Arab world problem. It is an international and a universal problem. So, it makes sense to send representatives to meet, guarantee their protection and let them discuss security. Let them know that all Nigerians will listen to them.
Some Christians think the issue of insurgency is a Muslim agenda. But that is a lie. Some people are bent on misinforming the populace that it is a Muslim agenda. When we realised that, we met to discuss. The Jama’atu Nasril Islam (JNI) and the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs came out to say that this is not a Muslim agenda. They made it clear that the insurgents are not representing them, but the Christians didn’t believe them. Where there is no trust, there can be no unity, which is the problem with Nigeria.
A good number of religious leaders are not honest and I will not stop saying this. I don’t care if I am killed for it but that is the truth. We have some religious leaders in this country who do not want Nigeria to remain as one, so they keep propagating the unproven agenda that there is a grand design to Islamise Nigeria. We have said that nobody can Islamise or Christianise this country; it is not possible. Unfortunately, those who are closer to our leaders, who have the ears of the leaders are blocking their (leaders’) ears to reason. If there is no meeting of minds, if there is no dialogue, there will be no end to this insurgency.

You have mentioned that there are some people who will not want to dialogue. Is there any effort you are making in terms of advocacy in order to enlighten these people?
This is very difficult. In fact, this is the only advocacy route we have, that is, to speak on the electronic and print media. Most times when meetings are called, those at the helm of affairs would have already decided on what to do even before the meeting. So when you speak they will look at you with suspicion and say this man has sold out. This country belongs to all of us – Christians, Muslims and those who don’t believe in any of the religions.
The attitude is also manifesting in the preparation towards 2015 – you must vote for a Christian or you must vote for a Muslim. This country will not survive with this kind of attitude. People should vote for an individual based on what that individual can perform. But when we begin to say we must have a Muslim or a Christian leader or representative, it is the quickest way to disintegration. I don’t care whether anybody is a Christian or a Muslim, once he is fair and just, I will vote for him. If Christian group members come together and say they are adopting a candidate, supposing that candidate loses, what would happen? How will they work together with him? If he wins but I didn’t vote for him as a Christian or as a Muslim and he sees me as an enemy, how do I go to him to say this is what my people are asking for?
Religious leaders must be seen to be fathers of our politicians but we are not. Rather, we are taking sides. Christian leaders want a government led by a Christian because of what they believe they can get from it, while Muslim leaders too want a Muslim leader in government because of what believe they can get from it. Thank God for people we had as leaders from the North who were objective when they were in power and gave every group what they deserved. They were fair, just and honest. Unfortunately, today, we, the religious people, are beginning to take sides and this will not augur well for Nigeria.

With the current trend of politics in Nigeria, what are your fears for the 2015 elections and even beyond?
I have fears for future elections in Nigeria. I am saying this because I had the privilege to serve in the post-presidential election violence committee. In Akwa-Ibom, when we listened to what happened there, we all decided to plead that the Constitution should allow for internal democracy. There is no internal democracy in all the political parties, and as long as there is no internal democracy, there can be no peace or fairness, and where there is no fairness or justice, you cannot find peace.
It doesn’t matter how many people in any political party want to be a governor, the president or a senator; everybody should be given equal chances. Let the party vote internally and not stifle aspirants’ desire to serve. We don’t have that now and that is why we have people leaving one party to another. But the question is: What is the guarantee that when you leave this party to another, you will find internal democracy there? It is very sad.
I was listening to a phone-in radio programme and the proposition was that Muhammadu Buhari should step down for Atiku Abubakar. Already, that is faulty; APC is operating on a false foundation if its hand is behind that kind of move. It is not only Buhari and Atiku who are in the party. There are others. I am convinced that there are even those who have not made their intention clear, so when you limit it to two people, there is no internal democracy. That is what the APC is also accusing the PDP of doing.
Part of the solution is to have independent candidates who will be voted for because they have good track records and people like them. That is what I am teaching and promoting in Kaduna. Whether a person is a christian or a muslim, PDP or APC should not bother us. What we should be concerned about are the capabilities of those aspirants. For people who are migrating from one party to the other, it is unfortunate because I believe every religion has something good to teach us. People must learn to stand by what they believe in. Honestly, I have faith in God, but I don’t have hope in our politics because there is no internal democracy.

What do you understand by the Caliphate system and why do you think the Boko Haram sect declared one?
That is why some are saying the Muslims want to Islamise the country. Anybody can use any concept. Calipha means ‘the deputy or representative of God, but these people declaring caliphates are not speaking the mind of the majority of Muslims. They want power and they believe they are using this concept to win support from the Muslims, but the Muslims are saying ‘No’. Have you ever looked at the population of the North-East? The Muslim population in Borno is over 90 per cent, so why are they declaring a caliphate? The emirs there are Muslims, the establishment there is Islamic.
It is not a Muslim, SCIA or JNI agenda, but the agenda of some extremists. The emir of Gwoza is a Muslim but this man ran 50 kilometres into the bush to escape a Boko Haram attack, so what sort of caliphate is that? A caliphate that does not tolerate other Muslims? Nigerians, especially Christians, need to be educated and know that this is not an Islamic agenda that has the support of majority of the Muslims.
Nigerians are being deceived by some Christian leaders and it hurts because this thing does not affect them. This so-called caliphate thing is obsolete; they are only bringing back what used to be in order to gain power. It doesn’t make sense.

The Christian community has been quiet on the fact that a private aircraft owned by the president of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) was used to ferry $9.3 million ostensibly to purchase arms. What are your thoughts on this?
My thoughts are mixed. You started by saying Christians have been quiet, but I will illustrate my response with my experience with the JNI chairman in Kaduna State. At a meeting of Christians and Muslims, I asked him why they were not talking continuously that the insurgency is not a Muslim agency. He looked at me and said, “If I am killed, will you look after my wife and children?” He asked if I knew how many people who spoke harshly against the insurgency in the North-East had been killed.
It is the same thing in Christianity. We are dealing with people with whom you have to be very careful, so that is why we are quiet. My position tallies with the statements by Senator Akume and the Catholic bishops. It is an embarrassment and should be probed. Government should not cover up this issue. Today, we have a Christian as President and a Muslim as the Vice President. If it is covered up today and tomorrow if we have a Muslim President and a Christian Vice President and the Muslim President does that, what would happen?
We need to think ahead and in the interest of credibility, government should listen to what the people are saying. I have done a little bit of content analysis of how the newspapers have been covering the issue, nobody is saying anything different apart from those who are trying to cover it up. The government should read what the Roman Catholic bishops have said and what Senator Akume has said. For the National Assembly to say it is a security matter and should not be discussed is unfair and very unfortunate.  We are beginning to hear things that should not be heard, one of which was that some people were given $50,000 dollars to keep quiet. The whole thing is becoming very dirty. One of the lessons is that all these people with private jets, only God knows the havoc they have been carrying out against this nation.

Are you satisfied with Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor’s explanation that he did not know what the aircraft was being used for because a company is managing the charter flight service?
It is sad. As religious leaders, whether Christians or Muslims, we should be close to government and be frank to the point of saying what they are doing is right or not. When there is no difference, we become chameleon Christians who change colours at different times and places. This is the type of Christianity we see in Nigeria today, people who have no spine and cannot say the truth.

Did you at any time quit CAN?
Some people present lies as the truth. That hurts. I am very active at the state CAN but not at the national level.

What would you have done if you were Oritsejafor?
I am not and I will never be. But because of his position, I would have expected him to call for the issue to be investigated. But then, you can only hear such a call from leaders in the western world. Nigerians leaders, whether church leaders or political leaders, don’t do that.

Again we have the scandalous collapse of a building of T.B. Joshua’s Synagogue Church of All Nations. What were your thoughts when you heard of the tragedy?
I have never been there and I have no reason to go there. But with the sort of things we have been hearing and reading as happening there, what I will ask myself as a believer is: What is God telling us? We are talking about honesty and transparency.
I will ask the question, the construction, what happened? Did they follow the laid-down rules, or did they cut corners? Was the building overloaded?  I will ask some other technical questions and seek to determine how the tragedy came about. If it is a matter of failure to release money to do quality work, then it is a blemish on his ministry and a shameful thing on the people who are involved.
South Africans are now asking questions. I watched the CNN where a South African whose mother also went to the Synagogue said he made frantic calls and that finally, one of the Synagogue staffers picked his call and when he asked of any news about his mother, the official just said, ‘everywhere is confused, keep praying.’
Those who leave Kaduna, Kano and other parts of the country to go to his place, what are they looking for? This brings us back to religion generally in Nigeria. The Chief Executive Officer of an oil company has a helicopter, and a poor pastor too wants a helicopter, so there is competition.  A successful private businessman has a university, a pastor too wants to own a university and that is why you see church leaders setting up universities. The problem is greed. Religion has become a means of livelihood in Nigeria. That is the bottom line and that is what the Synagogue thing is all about.
From a religion point of view, I will ask what is God saying about what is happening there because we hear stories and we have people who leave their businesses and go there to be told all sorts of visions. I believe the man needs to do some introspection, he should look at his whole life and at his ministry whether it is to the Glory of God.

Should the owner of the collapsed building be prosecuted in court, as some Nigerians have been clamouring?
Would you be able to probe him when he is telling you that you will win an election or your husband or wife will get a $40 million contract? Would they be able to touch him? If it were to be an ordinary business man or ordinary Nigerian, they would have arrested him for negligence. There is inequality and there is no justice in the country. Didn’t President Jonathan go to see the building? He went there but what happened?

As a Christian leader, how do you feel about pastors involved in divorce, which Christianity frowns upon?
As a believer, I am very strict on the issue of divorce. If you like, you can call me a fundamentalist. I don’t believe divorce is right. No matter what, once a man or woman is married, whether the marriage is good or bad, the Bible says, God hates divorce.
As I said, the church has been made to become a business. In most of the Pentecostal churches, it is business. When the leader dies, the son takes over. You can’t have that in the Anglican, Methodist and the Roman Catholic churches because it is not a business. So I think there is more to it than we know

But why do you think the rate of divorce in the church generally is on the increase?
There are many reasons. First, especially in Africa, we say polygamy is not allowed but if the wives of some men are unable to make babies, the men will drive such wives away and marry new ones. Second, if a wife cannot have male children, the man may decide to get another woman who he believes could bear him a male child. Third, it is greed that makes some people go after somebody else’s wife not only to commit adultery, but to go ahead to marry her. This is worse.
The society we live in is terribly materialistic and the girls are part of the problem. A girl sees a man who is successful living happily with his wife and she goes after him. Before you know what is happening, the man drives his wife away because the other girl is perhaps younger and more attractive. So materialism is a major cause of the rising divorce rate.
In the western world, they allow divorce; they are very open. If the relationship has got to a point where somebody else’s life is in danger, divorce will be easily accepted.