Constitution Review-I don’t know what National Assembly wants to achieve – Justice Kutigi
Can you give us an insight into the life of Justice Idris Legbo Kutigi?I am not more than what you see me now: a humble beginning as a villager. I was born in Kutigi, 50 kilometres from Bida, Niger State. I was born into a rural community and the people in my village are farmers. […]
Can you give us an insight into the life of Justice Idris Legbo Kutigi?
I am not more than what you see me now: a humble beginning as a villager. I was born in Kutigi, 50 kilometres from Bida, Niger State. I was born into a rural community and the people in my village are farmers. In the morning you follow your parents to the farm and when you come back you go to Arabic school in the evening. That was the routine until I was seven years-old when I was enrolled into an elementary school.
As a villager, how did you enrol into elementary school at that time when Northerners were kicking against western education?
In those days there was an elementary school in Kutigi. The oyinbo, that is the people in authority, decided that 20 or 30 children would be enrolled into school this year; they would share this number of children to villages who are to produce children to school that year. That is how we were sent to school. The situation was such that even if you don’t have a child of your own in those days, you must go and get your brother’s son or daughter because it was your turn to produce a child to school. At that time, nobody wanted to go to school. Apart from going to farm, our parents considered every other thing as useless.
As a child then, how did you feel when you were sent to school? Did you protest?
It was an order from my parents. There was nothing I could do. Of course, my other brother didn’t want me to go. Everybody in the family was feeling reluctant, but there was nothing we could do since my father said I should go. There was, indeed, a normal family squabble. For instance, a father who has three wives would pick the son of a particular one and the rest were left.
What actually inspired you into venturing into the judiciary as a career?
This is what I wrote in my prepared valedictory speech delivered on January 20 (Reading from the speech). In 1962, after I finished Higher School Certificate in Education in Zaria, I went to Kaduna to take up appointment as an assistant executive officer in the then Northern Nigerian Ministry of Finance. Alas, little did I know that I was going to Kaduna to become a student of Law. While I was about to report to the ministry as an assistant executive officer, information came to me that I was going to attend an interview for a legal officers course at Luggard Hall, Kaduna the following day and that there was no representation from the Niger Province.
The most senior civil servants of the then Niger Province extraction headed, by one Alhaji Usman Alkali who was then an administrative officer in the ministry of establishment, held a meeting and prevailed on me to go for the interview which was taking place, like I said, the following day. I told them that I didn’t apply but they insisted that I must attend the interview. This, according to them, was to help make the representation from the Niger Province. I reluctantly agreed with them, so I went. I took part in the interview, along with other candidates from other provinces that made up the Northern Nigeria. Minutes after the interview was conducted, the results were announced.
As Allah would have it, I was among the successful candidates. We were given one week to report to the Institute of Administration, Ahmadu Bello University, Zaria to commence the course in Legal Studies. Some of my classmates for the course included Honourable Justice Umaru Abdullahi, retired President of the Court of Appeal, the late Dr Sulaimanu Kumo, director of the Institute of Administration, Ahmadu Bello University, Zaria and so on. At the end of the course in 1963, we sat for an examination. I and some of my colleagues who passed the examinations proceeded to the School for Oriental and African Studies, University of London. I never planned for it.”
In those days of the Sardauna, the politicians would not do anything until they were sure that everybody was represented. So, they would be looking for people from all corners of the North. It is not like what obtains today, where somebody would just go to his village and select all the people from there and send them for training. I was the first ever to go to school in my family. I was good in figures, Mathematics, Accounts, and so on.
As someone who reached the peak of judicial administration in this country, can you tell us how independent the Nigerian judiciary is?
I can tell you straight away that, as far as I am concerned, the Nigerian judiciary is very independent. When I joined the civil service in 1966, I was a state counsel with the Native Authority. In those days, there were still some Europeans in the Northern Nigeria Ministry of Justice. As a state counsel, I can tell you that none of our leaders ever told us how we should go about handling our cases and so on, apart from doing it according to law. Even when we go through out the North to argue the cases, nobody gave us directives.
Since I joined the Bench and became the chief judge in Niger State, nobody ever talked to me on how to handle any particular case. I was never given directives by any head of state or governor. The experience may vary from one judge to another, I don’t know. But, as far as I am concerned, I was never given directives on how to go about any case. I can confidently tell you that our judiciary is independent despite what the media say about it. You know, the media alleged all sort of things but never come forward to prove them.
Corruption is said to be endemic in Nigeria’s public and private sectors, to what extent do you think is Nigerian judiciary affected by corruption?
I think it has much to do with individual judges. We have cases in the judiciary where allegations of corruption were made against judges. And, on very limited occasions, they were found to be true. And where they were found to be, the judges were dismissed. That is a fact. But we were not immuned. We do tell the whole world that there may be one or two bad eggs among us. But, once they are caught, the National Judicial Council (NJC) has got all the powers to investigate and recommend to the Head of State or governor to dismiss the judges found guilty of the allegations.
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Constitutional review has been generating problems in this country since the attempted third term by former President Olusegun Obasanjo. How do you think Nigerians should go about it now and what are the problematic areas in the constitution that deserve amendment?
This question will be better answered by politicians. If you look at our Constitution itself, it spells out how it would be amended. Why, for God’s sake, not amend it as the Constitution says it should be done? Corruption is not all about money; it is also about people with corrupt intention and ideas. The court has been interpreting several sections of the Constitution in the last 10 years. If you feel that because of the pronouncements by the court certain amendments are needed, then you get those parts together and amend them. I don’t know what we are doing now. Is it a review or are we writing another one? It is Nigerians that need attitudinal amendment and orientation, certainly not the constitution. We keep on talking about electoral law and what have you, it is the Nigerian people that are wrong, not the law. Because if the law is wrong, you can go to court and it will be interpreted. I tell you that some of us can be deceitful in their thought. Some people would say this can be done and let us go back to the communities, there ought to be representations from families to sit down again and discuss how we want to live, whether we want a perfect federation or a loose one and so on.
Free, fair, violence-free and transparent elections are very hard to come by in Nigeria since the country’s return to democracy in 1999. What do you think is responsible for that?
Are they not Nigerians who do the elections? Is it the law? We did it ourselves. I have never seen a law that says that on the day of elections, you will go and fill the ballot boxes outside. Same Nigerians shouting for electoral this or that are the same people that stuffed the ballot boxes outside the polling booths. So, what are we talking about? Why blaming the law? The way out is for us to follow the law. That is why this government should be commended for following the rule of law.
The 2007 presidential elections petition by Muhammadu Buhari and Atiku Abubakar was one of the cases brought before you after your appointment as Chief Justice of Nigeria. How did you handle the case, particularly the numerous public speculations of the verdict as well as the media frenzy generated by the case?
We didn’t feel bad. Only Nigerians can behave that way, where you read speculations of a court verdict on the pages of newspapers. We kept our heads cool and did what we believed was right in the circumstances. We refused to be distracted by the media obstruction and what have you. But really there were media speculations. We even had lawyers taking decisions; telling politicians who go and tell the press that the Supreme Court should reverse itself because of so and so reasons. You can see how they have awarded judgements for the Supreme Court. We had cases of ministers who appeared before the press saying that the decision given by the Court of Appeal or the High Court was wrong. They would also tell the Supreme Court or the higher court to change the decision because of some reasons. We were never bothered by this. We kept our cool and looked at the justice of the case.
How did you feel whengovernment refused to obey a court pronouncement like it happened during former President Obasanjo’s administration?
That is why I said this government should be commended for upholding the rule of law. Others would delay it or start saying one thing or the other. No matter how high you are, no matter your position in the society you have no choice than to obey the court verdict.
Many people believe that you are too serious a gentleman. Does your career have anything to do with your serious disposition? You are hardly seen in social functions. Why do you shy away from them, unlike some of your colleagues and predecessors?
In the first place, you should know that I don’t see my own face. Rather people see my face and interpret it. I once had people who interviewed me like you are doing now and had the courage to tell me that they never thought judges are human beings. I attend some of the social functions I like to attend. You are not forced to attend all them. Most of the judges use their weekends to read cases and write judgements.
Can you share with us some of the most controversial cases you have handled in the course of your judicial career?
People have asked me such type of questions. They would ask you about your landmark judgements and what have you. I only answer that when we judges award judgements we don’t categorise it as landmark. It is you people in the press that classify them as such. As far as we are concerned, every judgement is a judgement. There is no landmark justice, justice is justice. May be you classify them according to political or economic importance. But some cases are more difficult than others.
The Vice President Goodluck Jonathan was reported saying that he was at a time confused by the controversy generated by the president’s absence regarding the swearing in of your successor as Chief Justice of Nigeria, until you miraculously saved the situation by finding the Constitutional provision that empowered out-going CJN to swear-in your successor. How did you come about that?
I also read it in the newspapers. Naturally, the vice president would feel disturbed because the president did the job since the creation of Nigeria and he is not around. Like I said that day, the Oath Act says the president or the Chief Justice of Nigeria can perform that function. Nobody would doubt that one but the fact that it was the first time it was done even though it was in the law led to the reactions.
Just by the way, had it been that it was not in the law, I was the one who swore in Mr President himself and the vice president. I think there was nothing wrong if Mr President is supposed to swear in somebody and delegate me to swear –in that person on his behalf. Had it been that there is no law, and we decided to do it like that it would have been fair. Also, the only thing is that the CJN should do it while he is still in office. That was why we brought it back a day earlier instead of 31 December, we did it on 30th December 2009. This was done in order not to give room to the press as they were saying that there were two CJN. I retired on 31 December, I therefore swore- in the new CJN on 30 December when I was still the CJN.
You know when all this things were going on, what the judiciary was waiting for was the approval of Mr President. And we didn’t get the approval until Monday (28 December). The exercise was not yet complete on our side despite the clearance by the Senate unless we receive a letter from Mr President that he has approved the appointment of the new CJN. This is despite the fact that we saw the Senate President, David Mark hitting the gavel signalling the Senate approval. But, in law, we don’t rely on that. Mr President has to write to us officially. So, we were waiting for that reply to come and we didn’t get it until Monday and we said we are going to swear-in him on Thursday before we finally brought it to Wednesday.
What do you think is the way out of the controversial situation created by President Umaru Musa Yar’adua’s absence in the last two months, particularly the Abuja High Court verdict that gave the vice president some presidential powers?
The case is very simple. We should just follow the rule of law. I have not seen the judgement myself (when this interview was being conducted). But I had the Attorney General commenting on it. They quoted Section 5 of the Constitution which says the vice president can perform the function of the president until he comes back. But Section 145 said acting. When he acts under Section 145, Mr President must write to the Senate and so on and so forth. But he hasn’t done so. And when an appointment is made under Section 145, the vice president would be acting on his own. He is no acting for Mr President. When you are acting under Section 145, you got the full powers and you are responsible for your actions. But by this verdict, he can only does so as directed by Mr President. You see the courts read the Constitution sensibly. But the politicians and pressman can go and put whatever meaning they want to put. The case is simple. Under Section 5, the vice president can act for Mr President as he directs since he is not there until he comes back. But under Section 145, when you appointed somebody as acting, he has all the powers and responsibility not as Mr President directed. But the court verdict only allows the vice president to cover the job of the president that is all.