‘Day a foreign female diplomat embarrassed me over Nigeria’s negative image’

You have spent more than two months at the National Conference. Committees have submitted their reports, which are now being considered. As a delegate of the Arewa Consultative Forum, what are the issues that are important to the Northern region?During the initial plenary before we went to the committees, I made it very clear that […]

You have spent more than two months at the National Conference. Committees have submitted their reports, which are now being considered. As a delegate of the Arewa Consultative Forum, what are the issues that are important to the Northern region?
During the initial plenary before we went to the committees, I made it very clear that to sustain the unity of this country, we should see reason in restoring the idea of on-shore, off-shore dichotomy and ensuring all the states within the federation units benefit from it.
I keep on saying that the demand for the infrastructure in this country is so enormous that we cannot do it with the present budget set-up, with the largest percentage of income going to recurrent expenditure. We have to reduce spending seriously.
On the on-shore, off-shore issue, what we succeeded in doing is to maintain the status quo. The committee was able to come up with a 4.5% revenue for the development of solid minerals, which we believe are abundant in Nigeria and would generate quite a lot of income.
We had been under tense pressure to produce results, going up and down. Even if we were not able to come much earlier, like others did, we can say comfortably that we were able to come together with the chair and co-chair. We have been working very seriously; at least we have gone somewhere. These are real issues that some of us would blame ourselves for if we didn’t tackle them now.
Our reports now are being considered at the plenary, and even though some of the issues were settled at the committee levels, like the issue of resource control in the committee on the devolution of power, the same issue is rearing its head in other committees like Environment. They came up with a new phrase called Resource Democracy.

How prepared are northern delegates to see that the recommendations are sustained?
I think it is important that there is unanimity on that from the membership of the committees. They will all come together. Sometimes, some of the problems are from the way the thing is laid. What one will expect is that you go into the recommendations one by one, and then the general consent or otherwise. If there is any other dispute, there is a rule that exists on consensus. And we insisted on 75 because we needed a better meeting to deliberate as the composition was lopsided against us.
We decided to continue with the conference to show everybody that we are interested in the unity of this country. I do remember that the former Minister of Defence, Dr Halliru Muhammed made it very clear that though we knew things should be done openly in terms of the composition, we decided to continue because of our interest in the continuity of this country nobody should underrate our intelligence. We just went in, and by the grace of God, we did well.
But the issue was that the National Assembly, dominated by northerners, abrogated the onshore/offshore dichotomy. Is it possible that northern delegates changed their mind on resource control during the adoption of these reports?
On the issue of onshore/offshore, some governors have gone to court. You remember very well the Adamawa State government went to court and the fact is that there is no ambiguity on the fact that those resources belong to the state. The National Assembly is empowered to make a law on how this would work, and the National Assembly has made a law to that effect.
That is why we are saying there is a situation that somebody has become so handicapped. We have a situation where a state will be given N3bn and another one is given N30bn in the same federation. One other argument is that in the 1963 Constitution, it says 50% control. Even if that be the case, people tend to forget that it is the same resources that were used in developing the entire country. If you look at the papers the northern delegates have brought, you will see the resources, the taxes. Some of the things that happened, we have to blame ourselves.

The local governments issue has also generated serious debate, with some southern delegates saying it should be scrapped. What is the true position of things now?
Yes, it an issue that generated very serious debate. It is true they said the local government tier should be removed from the Constitution. But their argument is that each state should now be given the same amount of money that is being given to the local government. It is left to the states to create how many local governments they want. There is also this feeling that there are more local governments in the north than in the south.
One gets a little bit worried when people believe there is the same population in the south as in the north. They should appreciate the fact that we have more population, in terms of the size. One of their arguments is that we get more money through the local government structure. Although the committee is saying they should go back, I have a feeling this won’t be an issue. A number of delegates are of the opinion that this won’t work.

What is your take on the allegation that the National Conference is all about President Jonathan’s 2015 agenda, and one of the delegate’s suggestion that next year’s election be deferred by 18 months because of the insecurity part of that agenda?
The conference has already made it very clear that it did not have anything to do with the extension idea and that nobody has ever addressed it on that. In terms of the motive, I don’t know. One can’t know what is in another person’s mind. In 2005, when I had the privilege of participating in former president Olusegun Obasanjo’s conference, I remember a colleague working days and nights on extension of the gas pipeline to the northern part of the country. At the end of the day, his recommendations were dumped, they were not used. There is the same fear that this one may go the same way. But there is nothing wrong with bringing together some people to make this effort.
On part-time legislature, this was agreed to by almost everybody. We have to reduce the financial burden, and people have also agreed that 75% of the budget going to recurrent expenditure doesn’t make sense. It was agreed it should be 70-30; 70 for capital and 30 for recurrent. It was also recommended that, at least, it should be 60-40 for now.
Whatever be the motive, something positive will surely come out from it. It is only that one does not know whether there will be the willingness to get these things implemented administratively. It has to go to the National Assembly for legislation. But there is nothing wrong in coming up with recommendations like this, whatever the motives are.

So many voluminous copies of reports were submitted by the committees. Do you think these reports would be implemented?
It depends on the National Assembly. It’s the National Assembly that has the powers to legislate on it. But there are certain things that can be done at the conference, things on which we can take decisions, like the legislature being a part-time affair. At least, it will reduce a lot of cost.
One cannot determine the willingness of the administration on implementation of the recommendations. But there is nothing wrong in coming up with it. I agree that there are quite a number of reports that can turn around so many things.

Some Nigerians look at the whole thing as diversionary. Some are saying that the president wants to divert attention from the leadership problem and insecurity, particularly the Boko Haram insurgency. How do you look at it?
I had the privilege of serving as the Nigerian ambassador in Indonesia and to discuss with a number of people who are career diplomats. There was a crisis in Libya and I had spoken with a number of people who told me that our decision at that time to dance with the transition government couldn’t favour us. One of the most dangerous developments then was that a number of the mercenaries were transported from the sub-Saharan countries to Libya, and with the demise of Gaddafi, these mercenaries ended up having nothing to do in Libya. A number of these ammunitions, it has been proved, came from these porous borders we have here.
My perception is that the problem can’t be put down to the federal government alone. Government has its own contribution, because they are more directly involved. The Borno state governor, a very hard working guy, did a lot, but there is the need to look at the other two tiers of government: the states and local governments we have today. There is also the role of the two tiers of government, including the traditional institutions.
So one of my displeasures was the way we treated the Libyan Transition Council, which I believe we did just to please the West.

Was the Nigerian government’s position of aligning with the rebels contrary to the African Union’s stand?
I think we are paying for that. At the time I was there, I discussed with a number of people who were there and they believed it was not fair for us to have taken that decision and that we should be very careful in taking such decisions. I still believe that this has really cost us a lot.

Nigeria seems to be losing its glory as a leader in Africa, sometimes losing regional and sub-regional elections to smaller countries. What is responsible for this?
You cannot divorce your foreign policy from internal security of lives and properties; it is a determining factor. People assess you and realise that in the last four-five years, this country has not been able to establish peace. When you talk to people, the comments you get from them are uncomplimentary. You cannot take your home policy away from your global policy.
In the 70s, whenever we sneezed, everyone would shiver. There was stability at home and the economy was doing very well; the naira was not even equivalent to the dollar. The stability of a nation determines the kind of reputation one builds outside the world.

Can we hold the current political leadership responsible for the negative image the country has?
No, because it is a cumulative thing. But now, the political party structure is faulty. You cannot talk about the president, who is virtually elected by Nigerians, but belongs to the PDP, as the leader of the PDP, or the governor as the leader of the party in his state. You hardly see any governor going into a meeting at his party’s headquarters; he holds party meetings at the Government House.
At the national level, it is a bit better; occasionally you see the president go to the party’s headquarters. The idea of having the national or state chief executive as the party’s leader is wrong. The party’s leadership should be distinct from the national or state chief executive. The party should be able to discipline anybody. But when you are the leader of everything, who will discipline you? This is one of the problems that affect party structure. There has to be a distinction between the functions of the party and the functions of the government.

What is the practice in other climes?
I never heard any time when Obama said he is the leader of the party. You never heard of the issue of Shagari being the leader of the NPN. The leader should normally come out from the parliamentary system. What we have there is the leader of the Senate, which is everywhere in the presidential system. Once you become the leader of the country, you are the leader of everybody. The party can discipline you, maybe on the basis of the party’s programme. The chief executive here belittles himself imposing himself on the party and everybody.

What’s the way out?
I don’t know what will be the final outcome of our report. The government seems seriously interested in effecting change. You cannot spend this kind amount of money and you just leave it like that. Obasanjo did, but I think he was not comfortable with the outcome. I think the pressure that time was tremendous in terms of a six-year single term.
Basically, there is the need for enlightenment for the political class, to be more conscious of the fact that you don’t allow people to be pushed to the wall, because anything can happen. We have all the resources we need to get to the top 20, as we promised to be, but there has to be stability in the country. Our leadership quality will determine that.

There are many Nigerians in prisons in Indonesia. Why?
By the time I left Indonesia, in March specifically, there was about 20 Nigerians on the death row. We had about 70 spread in about three or four prisons. What we tried to do at that time was see the possibility of prison exchange. But unfortunately, that was not possible because there were no Indonesian prisoners here. The only thing we thought we could do was to do what we did in Thailand – prison transfer. That was that you would serve some time there and come back home to complete the rest.
But in Indonesia, I found it difficult to achieve because they have never had an experience of that kind of arrangement. The man that took over from me must have pursued it. The prisoners issue doesn’t give us a very image in view of the number of Nigerians languishing in a number of Indonesian prisons.

Apart from that, Nigerians are being maltreated. Look at what happened in Goa, India! What is really happening?
I think basically we have to go back to the base. We send our children to Sudan, because, as we believe, the quality of education is low. Our universities are complaining of infrastructure problem. I understand there is now an agreement that certain sums of money will be dedicated over a period of time to enhance infrastructure in those universities. Maybe, that will change a whole lot of things. I believe we have what it takes to develop once we put ourselves in a proper shape.

From your experience as a diplomat, why do countries such as South Africa which Nigeria liberated from apartheid look down on Nigeria?
I attended a meeting in Bali with the Trinidad & Tobago’s permanent secretary of the United Nations and I was introduced to her. She said something about Nigeria that made me so embarrassed. I can only tell her that that is part of the process of development. There are certain things in out administrative set-up that is taking us backward. The best vision that we ever had was the one by Shonekan, Vision 2010. He engaged a lot of consultants. There was a time-plan for everything, that this would be done now and that would be done later. I am praying that we would be more serious.

Finally, there are fears of a break-up of Nigeria in 2015. Do you subscribe to that?
If you look at what is coming out of the conference, you will see delegates using abusive words on one another. But the reality is that we sit down together and tell one another there is nothing wrong in the way we are. If you go to the South-South, there are northerners there, yet everybody knows they are always complaining. If you go to the North, there are southerners everywhere there. At the end of the day, there will be some shouting here and there, but I am confident this country will remain together.