Development, where we missed the road – Professor Gambo Laraba Abdullahi (former VC University of Abuja)

Gambo Laraba Abdullahi is a professor of Analytical Chemistry and possibly the first female professor from northern Nigeria to head a federal university—the University of Abuja. Before that, she had served as a commissioner in her home state, Bauchi, from 1985 to 1990. As well as Vice Chancellor, she was a minister in the government […]

Gambo Laraba Abdullahi is a professor of Analytical Chemistry and possibly the first female professor from northern Nigeria to head a federal university—the University of Abuja. Before that, she had served as a commissioner in her home state, Bauchi, from 1985 to 1990. As well as Vice Chancellor, she was a minister in the government of General Abdulsalami Abubakar (1993-94) and Director-General of the National Board for Technology Incubation (NBTI).

 

Tell us about your early education.

I was born in 1951 in Azare, Katagum Emirate of Bauchi State. I had a very good childhood. My father was a head of department in the Native Authority, so he valued education very much. I attended what was called Junior Primary School in Azare in 1956.

The end was the junior primary school for girls, but luckily for us, they opened a boarding senior primary school in Bauchi, according to the old system of education. So I moved to Bauchi. I passed an interview and a written test to be in the Senior Primary School. It was a three-year programme. I finished Class Seven in Bauchi. It was class four in Azare and seven in Bauchi. From there, we sat for the Common Entrance Examination and I succeeded. It did not matter how well it was done, but at least I passed and was given admission into Queen Elizabeth School, Ilorin.

All the way from Bauchi?

Yes. As a matter of fact, Ilorin was the first female secondary school for females in northern Nigeria. The second one came in 1962 in Kano, just about the time I was moving to Ilorin. It was opened by Queen Elizabeth.

Tell us about that journey. Was there no resistance from your family members to move on your own?

My dad was very much keen, but my mothers – my mother and stepmother – were not quite keen, but there was nothing much they could do because my father had decided that that was the best for me. So they had to agree and I moved to Ilorin.

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How was the experience of moving to Ilorin for you?

It was not easy.

 How was the journey to Ilorin?

I even slept at Minna railway station because when we came to Kano, we were told that the school would open on Sunday, not knowing that it would just open to receive students. My dad thought that classes were going to start.

He rushed me. There was no train from Kano to Lagos that would pass through Ilorin that day. He asked of local train and they said there was one going to Kaduna, from where I could join a Port Harcourt-Lagos train. My dad put me on the train. There was somebody from my hometown, an elderly person and his colleague in the Native Authority, going to Kaduna for a course. He told him to take care of me and change my train in Kaduna.

When we got to Kaduna, due to the struggle of coming out of the train, the one I was supposed to join arrived and passed. It spent only 15 minutes in Kaduna, so I missed it.

The man said he was coming to a strange place, with his wife of course, so he didn’t know where he was going to take me to.

They said there was a local train going to Minna so they could put me on that one, not knowing that even when I get to Minna, there would not be any train to Lagos; it would have to be the following day. And that following day was the Plateau-Jos-Lagos train. So, I went to Minna and spent the night there.

It was the following day in the evening that the train came from Jos. And luckily for me, there was a Gwari woman with her son in the railway station and they took care of me. She even told her son to put my luggage for me in the train. They assisted me. So I went on. So, honestly, that experience was not easy for me.

 

But you made it to Ilorin?

Yes.

I will never forget that experience. When I got on the train, I sat near an elderly man. When I put my head on the man, I slept. When I heard Jebba, I just got up, thinking that I was near Ilorin. When I got up, the man looked at me and asked, “Are you not going to Ilorin?” I said yes and he told me to sit down, saying that the journey was still far.

The man even contacted some of my colleagues who were going to Ilorin. He saw some young women and girls in that same coach and told them to assist me. I slept on his back all through. The man was very nice.

When we got to Ilorin, they came over to him and asked, “Where is that your daughter? He introduced me and they took my luggage. When we landed at the railway station, they asked about my dad, thinking the man was my father. I told them that he was not my dad and explained that he only helped me. They said he was a nice man.

How was your stay in Ilorin?

My stay was very interesting. Mathematics was my best subject. I also liked sciences. But I had a bit of problem with English, such that the principal even tried to coach me through another teacher so that I would be able to catch up. I was good in Physics. But unfortunately, in Physics and Mathematics, the teachers were not that good. But my Chemistry teacher was very good, so I was able to comprehend it better.

My main problem was the issue of choice of career. At that time, there was this craze about wanting to be a medical doctor. And wanting to do that, I had to do away with some of my Maths and take Physics, Chemistry and Biology because that was the combination allowed.

I wanted to be a doctor, but later on, I changed my mind. I had already twisted my course to Chemistry, Physics and Biology, instead of Mathematics.

After Ordinary Level, that is the West African School Certificate Examination (WASCE), we went for A’level.

Still in Ilorin?

Yes. I did three subjects – Maths, Physics, Chemistry. When I finished, luckily for me, when I went to Zaria, I had to also do remedial.

But at the same time, I decided that I was getting married, so I decided not to read Medicine because it would take time. I decided to do something else.

So you went to the Ahmadu Bello University (ABU) for B.Sc, Chemistry?

It was not even Chemistry but Biochemistry. It was in Chemistry Department but at the final year, we sort of chose Biochemistry based on the combination of courses.

You said you got married as you entered ABU for your degree. Your biography indicates that after ABU, you went to England for master’s and PhD. How were you able to combine marriage with this long sojourn abroad?

As a matter of fact, I had only a child.

I did my NYSC in Kano and had to move to Maiduguri because by then, my husband was not employed and I was also looking for a job.

The condition was such that if your husband did not go out looking for a job for you, or a man like a brother or father, it would be difficult. It was not easy for a young woman to look for job herself. Because of that difficulty, I decided to move to Maiduguri, where my uncle lived. He was the one that assisted me and I got a job at the North East College of Arts and Science.

To teach?

Yes. And that’s what became the University of Maiduguri.

We were advised to go for postgraduate training because it was needed for the university. It was even the university that sponsored us to go for master’s and PhD.

How did you combine that with family, as well as going to England?

Because of that condition, I think the marriage did not work. That was the problem. But all the same, all along, we kept in touch.

What of the child?

The child is with me up till now.

As a young woman from Borno who suddenly found herself in a cold England, what was your experience?

It was not easy, but with all the facilities there, like the warm clothing and the heaters, it was okay. At least one was happy to be there. The only problem was that sometimes one was disregarded because one was black–(there was) discrimination. For example, when I went for my master’s, I heard from the grapevine that I was the best student, but I was not given the prize. Someone else got it. And for my PhD, I knew I was also coming up as one of the best students, if not the best. My supervisor even wanted me to go and present a paper at the International Conference of Chemistry, but somehow, because of discrimination, somebody objected to it.

They put their own. I didn’t go, despite the fact that my supervisor and external examiner considered me as a genius for what I did.

So, you did your master’s and PhD in the same university?

In Loughborough University of Technology, but I came back to the University of Maiduguri to teach for two years before I went back.

Was your stay in England lonely? Did you cope socially?

I didn’t mind because even when I was in Maiduguri, I was lonely because I left my husband behind. I didn’t really move around or have any interest in anything else.

To be frank with you, it was not easy for a young woman of that age to befriend anybody, even the females. It was not easy to get somebody of my type.

How long did it take you to finish your PhD?

I finished in 1984.

It looks like after your PhD you didn’t stay long in the university because suddenly, you became a commissioner.

Yes.

How did that come about?

It was Chris Garuba hat insisted when he became governor.

Were you already back to the University of Maiduguri?

Yes. I was Lecturer (1).

How did he know you were there?

He must have heard because I never came to Bauchi to see him or anybody. I was in Maiduguri throughout. But somehow, I got the rumour that we were going to be appointed commissioners.

There was a lot of resistance because I was not living in Bauchi, but Chris Garba insisted that he wanted to work with someone, a female who had a PhD in science from Bauchi State. That was how he brought me to the state. Luckily for me, I was able to serve for five years.

In different ministries?

Yes. I served in the Ministry of Information, Social Development, Social Welfare and Culture. After a year, I was posted to the Ministry of Education. I was in education for a year and a half, after which I was posted to Commerce, Industry and Tourism.

As a young woman who was not actually familiar with the Bauchi environment, how did you cope as a commissioner?

There was nothing like that. The only thing is that at that age, one was really determined to do one’s best. I tried to be fair to everybody. I put in my best in whatever I did.

I was not looking at religion or any culture. I was not looking at ethnicity; I just had to work hard. But when I saw any imbalance somewhere, I tried as much as possible to put it right.

There is this tendency to look at young women in government as one not attuned with culture. Did you experience that?

One had contained oneself within cultural expectations. I was there, but nobody could point at me and say I was doing anything outside the ordinary. I was an ordinary, traditional woman of Bauchi State; and that’s how I lived.

Although you were not married?

I was not married, but I kept to myself. I am sure I have a lot of witnesses to that. I think that was my credit. That’s what really kept me going. I tried as much as possible to really keep to myself. I tried to uphold that morality aspect of my life and make sure I did not play with it.

Did you miss chemistry while holding a political office?

Well, to a certain extent, I did, but not much, because I very much believe that if one has the basic education, one can apply it to do whatever one is called upon to do.

I think that is very important because teaching chemistry is not the only thing one can apply one’s knowledge. PhD is a knowledge you can apply to do a lot of things. When I was first appointed a commissioner for information, I wondered how it was going to be for me, but honestly, it was the ministry I enjoyed. I liked the way journalists cooperated with me. They assisted me to succeed and I was very happy. I can always recall Yaya Abubakar, a famous journalist from Bauchi. He was my mentor. He taught me a lot of things and guided me on what to do.

What happened when you finished your tenure as commissioner in 1990? Did you want to go back to the University of Maiduguri or you moved towards Abuja?

I reported back in Maiduguri. But I remember that with the new university in Abuja, I was also keen on going there.

Why Abuja?

Because Abuja was a new federal capital.

But it was just a small university, so why were you interested?

Yes; we were the ones that built it up.

Was Isa Mohammed the vice chancellor then?

Yes. He was the one that brought me.

I remained a senior lecturer for quite some time—about six years—before I became an associate professor, after which I became a professor.

You were a lecturer in the university, maybe an associate professor, and suddenly, you became a minister for a year under Abdulsalami (Abubakar); what were the circumstances that led to that appointment?

The credit goes to his wife, Justice Fati Abubakar. We were mates in secondary school and she probably wanted to work with me.

She knew that quite a number of times there were proposals to appoint me as a minister or give me a federal appointment, which never worked. She sympathised with that and said I had to be appointed. So I became a minister and was posted to the Ministry of Women Affairs, where I worked with her.

Although it was a short one; how was your experience as a minister?

It was a short one but very interesting because we did quite a lot. We had many ideas because I had people, including directors, that worked with me who were quite good – people like Safiya Mohammed and Amina Lawal. We were able to put a number of things in place.

We were able to initiate policies for women. Child development was also an issue we really did. I knew we did quite a bit on the disabled because it was social development. There was also something for the elderly. We did quite a bit within eight months.

You also became the vice chancellor of the University of Abuja; would you consider that as the high point of your career?

Yes.

How did that happen?

There was an advert and I applied. But there was a lot of resistance, according to them, because I had not qualified as a professor.

You were not a full professor?

For the period; but I did well in the interview. I was in the third position. But all the same, I was given that appointment because they saw that a lady could do the job.

Who gave you the appointment?

It was the government of Abdulsalami. The proposal was normally sent to him through the minister. According to the system that time, it had to go through the minister, then the president or head of state.

Did you have challenges as vice chancellor?

As a matter of fact, it was a university with a lot of problems. When Prof Isa Mohammed left, there was a problem because it is not easy to create something new and do something fantastic.

I was able to solve most of the problems; for example, the committee system that was not in place and some of the rights of lecturers and students etc. We instituted what was supposed to be in the institution, which were neglected.

I saw that where we were was a small place; it was secondary school or even primary school of the Federal Capital Territory, so we had to develop.

Despite the fact that Isa had started working for the permanent site, I was the one that pushed and got it for the university.

Was funding a challenge?

That has always been the challenge, but we made sure that we expanded the little we had very well, to the extent that at least one will be happy to say that there is no report of anything that was not done properly in the university during my five-year tenure.

 

What do you think were the highlights of that tenure?

Academic activities were put in place properly. Also, we got the permanent site, which we started developing; that was very key. There was no peace before then, but we maintained a lot of peace. Throughout my tenure, we didn’t have any serious disruption.

The only time we had students crying was for water, and when we supplied the water, that was the end. It was really a very smooth tenure.

Would you say that your tenure as commissioner and minister prepared you for the task?

That really prepared me. And I believe in obeying rules, laws and guidelines. Once you follow the guidelines and obey the rules, you won’t have any problem.

The university system encourages the involvement of others – community work. I was using members of the academic staff who were well prepared to do some of the jobs for me. I brought them over and we worked together and succeeded.

It is also remarkable that immediately you finished as vice chancellor you were appointed the Director-General of the National Board for Technology Incubation; how did that come about?

I saw the advert in the paper and applied.

Towards the end of your tenure?

It had finished; I was even on sabbatical. . When I applied, Dr Abdullahi Aliyu was the permanent secretary. I sat for the interview; and according to what I was told, I was the best, so I was given the appointment.

What did the job entail?

It was just coordinating the activities of incubation. Essentially, it was supposed to prepare you for research and development output for businesses that would generate wealth and jobs. We incubated in the centres, some of which came with their own innovations. Research and development need to be translated into businesses. That’s what they used to do in the centres – creating businesses.

When I became the director-general, I decided to say we could move out and also incubate those that were in the larger society, as well as introduce virtual incubation, whereby with the aid of computer we could communicate with all our tenants outside to incubate. They registered with us for that incubation, and that was the expansion we were able to bring.

But there were no quality control laboratories, so, for the fact that I am a chemist, I saw that as being very essential. So, we established laboratories for quality assurance and control.

We also established workshops, where we provided many of the things needed for essential engineering that was important for a lot of fabrications and some of the processes in the centres. We did that for quite a number of centres, but unfortunately, because of lack of funding, we could not extend it to every place. But I am sure something is happening now; they are adding a bit. I also tried to establish centres in all the states.

Despite all the investments and centres for technology and research and development, why is Nigeria still backward in terms of innovation, invention and taking care of our own technological needs?

That is really a very important area that requires a lot of discussion by all. We have a lot of institutions in place, as well as many policies and guidelines, but those ones are not carried through for the realisation of our goals and objectives because of funding.

Unfortunately for us, by the time we have ideas on what we want to do, we don’t seem to realise what is needed. In many things we do, we don’t do the mathematics very well.

Before you establish institutions, the most important thing is to know how to get them to work and sustain them. We don’t think of that. All we think at any point in time is how we can call it, for political or some other reasons.

Unfortunately, we don’t follow through to make sure that it works. This is our problem because even in the universities, we have many research outputs, but even the direction of the researches does not lead to what will lead to economic development for wealth and jobs.

We don’t even direct it; there isn’t proper link with industries, even small businesses. That is the problem. Sometimes we tend to think big, but sincerely, we are supposed to start thinking small because we have small businesses, very tiny, and some of them non-formal. Those are the ones we have to encourage because they ought to develop to become the big ones.

When you think of creating a very big one, there are lots of problems. It is not easy to create a big business. And most of the time, even for those that are kept in our country, they bring outsiders to assist; and they have their own interests.

Sometimes we engage in doing something and say it is fantastic because for us, our people will have jobs, but what our people will probably have is labourers’ jobs and most of the top positions are occupied by outsiders. At the same time, the products are also for the benefit of outsiders because we are just packaging and selling; no  initiative. It is not our innovation that is being used. We have that problem.

Sincerely, there is the need for our government to think of how to go about getting our universities under one umbrella for research that is relevant to our economic or socioeconomic development. Research and development are very essential in all areas of our endeavour.

But if we have failed to do that all these years, even with all the top professors and universities proliferating, isn’t there a more fundamental problem than government doing more or even preaching to the universities to be more relevant to the economy?

The people have to participate.

Perhaps our problem is that we rely on government to do these things. In some places, it is the private sector that funds research and development so that it goes into manufacturing; what do you think?

Yeah, but you have to develop the private sector.

But we have the private sector.

The most important private sector sustaining Nigeria is non-formal.

The small one?

The small one; and it is non-formal. The real formal big private sector players are not many. And many of them have links abroad. This is our problem. What we are saying is: Let us build. We have to start somewhere.

We missed the road a long time ago, after colonisation. In the villages before, you had people with their occupations. And the father with his children would engage in that occupation, besides farming. There were a lot of things and skills.

In most homes and communities, what they used were what the people produced. Those are the kinds of things we ought to have developed. But unfortunately for us, we started importing and replacing those things we produced for our own use, which is wrong. That’s when we missed the road. We started importing those important things and abandoned our traditional things instead of developing them. And these foreign ones are not built on our knowledge.

Why have professors like you not gone into manufacturing and putting your ideas into practical effect?

There is need for encouragement by the government. Whether you like it or not, it is the government that will set the pace. Even players in the private sector are saying the government has to play a role to make sure that it is developed. When the private sector gets developed, we shall rely on it to do certain things for us.

In some places, professors or intelligent people with ideas will develop some things and link up with the private sector to produce them. Why don’t we have that in Nigeria?

We don’t have because our private sector is not that type. As I told you, many of the more advanced ones rely on innovations outside the country. They don’t normally depend on our universities.

Whether the universities are doing it well or not, we ought to at least encourage them and push them to be able to do something needed by the industries or companies in our country.

Also, research is a very expensive venture. Any government or anybody that is serious about research, even if it is in the industry, has to invest a lot of money. Research is very important for many of the industries that are succeeding in the foreign land.

Here, they will allocate N5 million for research. Is that real? And that is even now. When I was there, it was probably in thousands, not millions. That money was not really enough to do something very tangible.

After holding big positions, you went back to the university. What were you doing?

Well, I was a Director of Media and General Studies, but I was interested in teaching, more especially in my field of study. I very much believed that there was that vacancy, and I was needed, so I went back to the university. That’s the best place to be when you finish all those jobs. When you are in the university you are remembered, but if you decide not to be there, you are forgotten.

So, you remained in the university?

Yes.

But you recently retired, right?

I retired after 70 years.

I know professors who continued on contract and other things, into their 90s, why did you retire?

I think that after 70, one has been exhausted enough, so it is better to sit and think of light things to do. You know that at that age, one needs to take it lightly, not to be too involved. I very much believe that after a certain point, one needs to really think of taking care of oneself and not just job, right to the grave.

One aspect of taking care of yourself is to continue making a living; what does taking care of oneself mean?

But we have pension.

Is it enough?

That’s something to manage with. However, one can engage in consultancy. One can have some ideas of some things one can do in life.

So, what do you do after retirement? How do you take care of those things?

I do some consultancy. I serve in committees and get allowances for it. And at the same time, I do farming.

Where?

I have an integrated farm at home.

Where is that?

Azare, my village.

How would you engage in farming in Azare while in Abuja?

I do go, but I have some people taking care of it.

Experiences of people who stay away from their farms haven’t been good. Is it working for you? 

Of course, it failed at one stage, and I had to suspend activity, but I very much believe in integrated farming because you can feed others. You have fish, chicken, grains and cattle. And you have all the seedlings etc.

But the number one in this integration is the farmer, but you don’t seem to be there; are you comfortable with that?

I monitor from here. My son has also created a farm in Abuja here.

Are you working with him?

Sometimes I work with him.

He has taught me how to remotely control farms.

As an analytical chemist, have you been able to do one or two things in private business?

No.

Don’t you think it is possible to start small and grow it?

It is not easy, especially when you think of the total machinery needed. You can start a small farm, but it is not easy to start an industry on a small scale; it is a large investment.

Why do you prefer to live in Abuja and not Bauchi?

It is because I have been working on committees. I am also a consultant in many places. I very much believe that in Abuja, you have the advantage of being accessible, and you don’t need to travel far.

Also, if you have your accommodation in Abuja, you don’t need to pay for a hotel etc. That’s why I am still in Abuja.

Are you a member of the Bauchi Elders Forum?

I was.

You left?

No; it is no longer functioning.

We were inaugurated during the time of Ahmed Muazu. It continued during the time of Isa Yuguda.

Do governors of the state ask elders like you who served as commissioners 40 years ago your advice on how to develop things?

Not at all. I have not received any invitation. And I don’t normally like pushing or offering myself to do something that one is not invited for. This is because many of the people in positions of authority prefer to think for themselves. They don’t expect anybody to come and tell them what to do.

What about the federal level? Does the government call on you sometimes to make inputs?

Not at all. But I very much believe we may be able to assist the government in committees, boards or something of that sort.

You expect that?

We are expecting that to happen. If at all it comes, I will welcome it. But as I told you, I am not ready for any fulltime job.

What do you do with your time now? What are those light things you like to do?

I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of manipulation of things, something I very much believe I ought to do something about.

Chemistry?

Part of it is chemistry and some is general knowledge. Some of it is even something to do with economic development. I like that. I like to think about what we were and where we are heading to. I always try to see what we can do to improve the situation, especially the issue of insecurity and youth unemployment.

I also try as much as possible to sort of campaign, in my own little way, for people not to produce too many children. We very much believe it is time to control our population. Whenever I am home, that’s what I try to enlighten people on.

Do you collaborate with any structure like the Planned Parenthood or groups like that?

No; I just do it for those that are close to me. But I plan to start something like that.

A non-governmental organisation?

I am no longer serving in many of the committees, so I think it is time to think of doing something like that on my own. But I don’t so much like the work of non-governmental organisations.

Why?

I don’t believe many of them have very good intentions. Many of them are just doing it for the money.

But you can do it for social impact; don’t you think so?

Well, it has already made that name; that’s why I don’t like to be associated with them. If I have money, I will do whatever I can myself.

Why do you think having many children is a problem in our society? People will say that God decides how many children one would have, so why worry?

In the past, there was natural birth control and there were diseases and many children were dying. And people gave birth to many in anticipation that some would survive while some would not. But in the wisdom of God, he brought the knowledge of medicine to us, which expanded, to the extent that we have eliminated a lot of the diseases that were killing our children.

We have accepted that, and as a result, it is becoming a problem, such that we now have children we cannot take care of.

Why can’t people, especially women look for those things that would control the number of children they can have. I think there is nothing wrong with it.

God gave us medicine and we did not reject it, so we should not reject this one. I very much believe that having 16 children, for example, then think of pushing them to go and look for money without knowing what they are doing, is not proper. That is the root cause of many of the problems we have today.

We have people of strength, youths that don’t have jobs, and they don’t have somebody to take care of them at home, so they don’t have any regard for anybody. They go out looking for money and can take to anything to earn it, no matter what it is.

Maybe your view is influenced by your circumstance; is that so?

It is not that. We know we have to take care of all we have. Whoever that can take care of many children can do so. But many produce children they cannot take care of.

How many children would you have loved to have? Are you happy to have one or it is just circumstances?

Well, if it had come, I would have liked three or four. I have only one, but I have many brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews I take care of.

What do you do for pleasure? I noticed you have travelled to many countries; is travelling one of your hobbies? Do you travel still?

I don’t travel much; I used to go to the United Kingdom, America or any of those developed countries to learn. But now on my own, I feel very much that I don’t belong there because I know that nobody regards a black man in those white countries. One is just wasting one’s time; once you are black, you are nobody. Because of that, I don’t even bother; I don’t like to be in a place where people disregard me because of my colour.

I have been to hajj three times. I went for Umrah but I don’t believe I should just continue going, even if I have the money. I have many relatives that need assistance. We should put our efforts to assist those that need us, not spending money going to places.

So, travelling is over for you?

I don’t do so much. But sometimes we go for shopping – to buy one or two things we need. But things are in Nigeria now, so you don’t need to go anywhere to buy.

How do you spend your typical day?

I do a lot of resting. First of all, I need to have enough sleep, then wake up and get ready to do some reading. Sometimes I read my Quran. Sometimes I do some walking around, but every morning I do exercise. I have a gym upstairs, where I do my exercise. I very much believe that I don’t need to go out running because of insecurity.

I make a lot of contacts with people. I do so much on WhatsApp.

What about diet?

I am pre-diabetic, not quite diabetic, so I am very careful with my diet. I don’t eat a lot of starchy foods and I don’t take anything that has sugar. When I really need something sweet, I eat a sweetener but not always.

I always try to read as much as possible to see what is best for one to keep healthy, more especially away from all these common diseases that kill people with diabetes, hypertension etc. I do a lot of that. Of recent I just learned that wheat is not good again for diabetics.

Are you still in touch with old friends from Queens College?

Yes. Some of them have died, but many of them are going for treatment here and there, so I assist as much as possible whenever I can. I get in touch a lot, but there are those that one cannot trace.

Do you visit and socialise with them, or everybody is on their own?

We visit and socialise. I have my best friend, Zainab Alkali in Keffi, and one Kilishi in Katsina. I have many of them. As I said, Justice Fati Abdulsalami is my friend. I am a member of the Board of Trustees of what she is doing – the Women’s Rights Advancement and Protection Alternative (WRAPA).

Is WRAPA active?

It is active. (Sa’adatu) Mahdi is the executive secretary.