ECOWAS crisis serious threat to our national interest – Ambassador Jibrin Chinade

Ambassador Jibrin Dada Chinade has spent most of his working life in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs where he rose to become ambassador in the two Guineas (Conakry and Bissau) in 1978. He was also Nigeria’s envoy in the Netherlands and later on, the Soviet Union, before he became the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry […]

Ambassador Jibrin Dada Chinade has spent most of his working life in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs where he rose to become ambassador in the two Guineas (Conakry and Bissau) in 1978. He was also Nigeria’s envoy in the Netherlands and later on, the Soviet Union, before he became the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs where he retired in 1999. He remains active as an adviser in that field.

Let’s start with your background? 

Yes, I come from Chinade, the interesting thing about my name, not my name really, it is the name of my village or town in Katagum Local Government Area of Bauchi State.

You know, in those days, when you enrolled in a primary school or elementary school, you are normally associated with the name of your town, like Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, President Shagari, Shagari is not his name, it is the name of his town, Aminu Kano, and so many others. We were all part of that system in those days.

So, my town is Chinade in Katagum local government of Bauchi State. I was born in 1939. In fact, very interestingly to relate to this, only recently I took note of my 85th birthday on the 2nd of February this year.

So, from the village or from the town of Chinade, we enrolled in primary school in 1946. The primary school itself was established in that town in 1944 – we were the second set.

From there, we went to Bauchi Middle School in 1950, which eventually was changed to Bauchi Secondary School. And from there on, I went to Gombe Teachers College, for the Grade 2. 

Why Teachers College, from secondary school to Teachers College? 

Because at that time, the North or Northern Nigeria was looking for teachers and they came to us, it was, I think the then Minister of Education from Katsina, Isa Kaita.

We went to Gombe Teachers College after my, I would say, graduation from that college. It’s of interest to tell you that my first posting was to teach in Katsina College. In fact, I was teaching much older students than myself.

After the Teachers College, you went to teach?

I went to teach in Katsina College.

• Let the parliamentarians be reminded
• https://dailytrust.com/topics/reminiscences/page/2/

For how long?

For just one year. Then I got a scholarship, which was called Commonwealth Scholarship. I had the option of either going to ABU or going to Britain. You know, in those days, Britain was very attractive.

So, I opted for the Commonwealth Scholarship to train as a lecturer for the new Advanced Teachers College. They were just starting then.

So they selected about four of us from the North and of course, with some other colleagues. In fact, I can tell you that the senior brother of Chinua Achebe was one of us – John Achebe. We went to Belfast.

This is Ireland. So, you were chosen to go to Ireland? 

Yes, we were chosen to go to Ireland for two and a half years to train as lecturers in education for the newly established teachers college; what they called Advanced Teachers College, offering NCE, they call them now. I came back in 1964.

Let’s talk about your trip to Ireland. Was it a very difficult thing for you to go from Katsina, where you were a teacher, to Ireland …?

No, it wasn’t difficult. Really we had all of that on our mind; of being open, a bit progressive, even as a student and so we welcomed it. I had the option of going to ABU or abroad and when the Commonwealth Scholarship came, and only I think four of us. 

Who were the four? 

They’ve all passed away. One was from Kano. The other one was from Sokoto and one from, I think, Kogi. 

How was it as young people in Ireland? Were there challenges? 

We were a mixture. I was one of the youngest. I was one of the youngest in that group. So some of them, like John Achebe, who was even senior to his brother, Chinua Achebe, was one of us. And there was another, Makarfi from Zaria. He passed away many years ago.

So it was very interesting. But the lectures were challenging. We enjoyed it. It’s a new world. You know, for somebody from Bauchi or from Chinade to find yourself in a very modern place like England, from there to Ireland, and followed up all the current discussions with America and the world in general, it was very exciting. 

You didn’t experience any racial discrimination? 

I didn’t experience anything, really. In fact, I keep on telling this very interesting story.

In 1963, there was a terrible winter in Britain. And I went to buy paraffin, called kerosene, for my heater. We were in a queue in a shop and one of the young white boys, I think about 12, came to me and said, “you’re awfully black, aren’t you”?

You’re awfully? 

Black. He thought I was a white man. He thought I was a white man. 

He had never seen a black person? 

He had never seen a black person. 

So, he thought it’s a white man that had become black? 

So, he came to me. Strangely, he said, “you’re awfully black, aren’t you”? And his mother just dragged him away from me. I said, no, please leave him. Possibly he had never seen an African. So we enjoyed it. Of course, we enjoyed it and then we came back. 

You had a degree?

It was not a degree. It was a specialized programme for the Commonwealth countries to train their prospective lecturers in teacher’s colleges. But we had really very advanced lecturers, professors, exposures, and cultures. We visited Oxford, we visited a lot of the British establishments just to widen our vision of the world.

So we came back and I was appointed educational officer at the Bauchi Provincial Office in 1964 by the then Northern Government, from there…

This is a senior service appointment?

Senior service. In fact, I can tell you another story. When we came back, I was asked to go and collect my car in Kaduna. It was an Opel Record. That’s the first thing they gave us as an educational officer. Black, I can never forget that car.

I was posted to Bauchi, my state and just then, there was this request for young northerners to come into the Foreign Service and I applied, very reluctantly. I was not too keen really to leave the comfortable job with a car, with a government house in the GRA and move out to Lagos in 1964.

So, what made you do it? Were you pushed to apply to the Foreign Service?

I was encouraged. I was encouraged by the then chairman of the Federal Public Service Commission, Alhaji Sule Katagum. He said, “well, since you have just come back, you have your beautiful suit with you, why don’t you join the Foreign Service”? 

You just got back from England?

Exactly. So I applied and I was invited. I had an interview by S. L. Manuwa, who was the deputy to the chairman. And I can tell you also a very interesting story about the interview.

He asked one difficult question. The question was, ‘What is the currency used in Russia?’ 

To test your international affairs? 

 And I was the only one in that group who scored it. So I said, “the Ruble” . But I can’t tell you why I knew it. I knew the Russian currency was the Ruble because I had some Russian friends in Belfast.

I joined the Foreign Service. I reported in August 64. I think I reported with one of your very senior colleagues, (Dahiru) Modibbo, who was in Kaduna Radio. He was a journalist and we reported together. After six months, he got fed up. He said, no, he couldn’t take Lagos anymore. So he returned to his profession as a journalist. And we stayed. 

You stayed in the Foreign Service? 

I stayed in the Foreign Service. 

I meant staying in Lagos for an extended period…? 

Absolutely. 

And that wasn’t pleasant at that time? 

Of course. When you join as a young officer, they call us external affairs officer grade 9. You start with grade 9 as an admin officer. In the home service, they call them admin officers, in the Foreign Service, they call them external affairs officers. Like in the army, they call them lieutenants. Like a young lieutenant of the Foreign Service. So that’s how it started.

I was in the ministry in ‘64, I think for one and a half years. Then I was posted to London in ‘66. 

So, you were back in England? 

I was back in England. Very much so and I renewed my contacts with my friends. I was put as third secretary of political affairs. I knew the British political system very well; Labour Party, Conservative Party, and so on.

My then head of chancellery, M. O. Adefope, who was then the head of chancellery, put me as a third secretary. And I was on the political desk.

After some time in London, of course, as I once told the story, I was the duty officer on the day of the coup in Nigeria in January ‘66. I was on duty in the High Commission on Saturday. I reported for work in the morning, I think about 11 o’clock, and I met a crowd of journalists in the High Commission.

As soon as I came, they said, “Mr Chinade, what’s happening in your country”? I said, nothing is happening in my country.

You didn’t know?

I didn’t know. I didn’t know there was a coup. So I went upstairs and asked our communication people. They said, oh, sir, we’ve been cut off from Lagos since 2 o’clock; we had no communication with Lagos. And eventually, of course, it turned out to be a military coup. 

Was it a coincidence that you were posted to London more than once; you were also later…? 

Yes, I was posted to London, exactly. When I was in London, I was also posted to Liverpool to take charge of the office. We had a Liverpool office.

We then had two offices in London-Edinburgh to look after Scotland and Liverpool to take over the Midlands. That’s Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Cardiff and so on. So I was posted to take charge of that office as a young diplomat.

By then, of course, I was what they called second secretary. So I was in charge of that office. We had a large Nigerian community in Liverpool and I was in charge.

And then we were also responsible for looking after our people in Birmingham, Manchester and all the Midlands areas. I was there for, I think, about two and a half years. Then I was posted back to Nigeria.

But you returned to London later, right; as head of chancellery?

No, no, that was a different story altogether. From there, I was posted back to Lagos.

After the war, that’s 1970 or something like that. I was posted to Sierra Leone as Acting High Commissioner.

So I was posted to Sierra Leone as Acting High Commissioner. I was there for quite some time. We enjoyed our post in Sierra Leone.

My wife was very popular, Mrs. Chinade, everybody knew her. She was driving all over the place and everywhere she goes, “mrs Chinade, mrs Chinade”. She was a young, pretty girl then, of course.

And from there in Sierra Leone, I came back and was posted to Central African Republic with President Bokassa in power.

So, you were there; you saw Bokassa?

I worked with him. I worked with President Bokassa for almost two years. When they appointed a substantive commissioner in Sierra Leone, who was Tanko Yusuf. He came over from Germany to take over from me. He was then the Agent General at one time in London.

Jolly Tanko Yusuf?

Jolly Tanko Yusuf. Then he joined the Foreign Service and he was posted to Hamburg; our consulate in Germany.

When he was appointed Ambassador or High Commissioner to Sierra Leone, he came and took over from me.

And I came back and eventually I was posted to open up the new mission in Central African Republic, after Bokassa’s state visit here. He came on a state visit to meet the head of state, General Yakubu Gowon and he complained that there was no Nigerian embassy in his country.

You know, Bokassa is a robust, strong military personality. And the then head of state decided that we should open up an embassy in the Central African Republic, in Bangui, that’s the capital and I was posted there to do so with my staff. I think about five of us went. 

How was the experience? We’ve heard all sorts of wild stories about Bokassa. 

Bokassa was indeed a character of his own. He was a strong military man, a strong personality, what you may call politically a dictator; and a very colourful individual.

I had a very exciting interaction with him. As Nigerian first charge de affairs, in fact he refused to call me charge de affairs, he said, ambassador. ‘You are an ambassador’.

So, he promoted you?

He promoted me, in fact, I even had trouble with Lagos. They queried me, how did I come to be an ambassador? I said I was not. I was appointed by Bokassa. So, you know, I got on very well with him, we never had any problem.

Were his countrymen happy with him?

No, he was a real military dictator, very colourful. He always had big parties, with a lot of music, dancing and big dinners.

And he had very soft spot for Nigeria and Head of State, Gen. Gowon in particular. So when he was marrying off his daughters, he called me. Suddenly I had a phone call from the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

He said, Mr. Chinade, “will you come and have dinner with the president”? This was around seven o’clock in the evening. I went, we had dinner. He said, I’m getting my martins – his two martins. His two daughters, one is the real martin, one is the false martin sent to him by the French.

So, he said he was getting them married and I should invite President Gowon or Gen. Gowon to attend the wedding. We had a beautiful relationship with him. And in fact, my landlord was the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I was in his house.

Did Gowon attend the wedding? 

No, he didn’t. But we sent a very good gift. He appreciated that. 

When did you become a full-time ambassador, in what circumstance? 

That’s a good question. 

That’s from Guinea, right? 

No, from Central Africa I came back to the ministry and then was sent back to London as head of chancellery. 

You know Sule Kolo was the first permanent secretary in the Ministry of Defence. He was under Inuwa Wada and during independence, he became the first permanent secretary in the Ministry of Defence.

He was a very good friend of Gen. Gowon. And when General Gowon was head of state, he posted him to London as our High Commissioner. And I worked with him very well; we got on very well.

So, at what point did you then become ambassador? 

I became an ambassador in I think 1978. I was made ambassador by Gen. Olusegun Obasanjo.

I knew Obasanjo very well when I was in London because I was in charge of all the personnel working for the Nigerian government in the mission. And Obasanjo then was on a course at the Royal Defence College with General(Iliya) Bisallah. The two of them were attending Royal College of Defence Studies.

Obasanjo was then a brigadier and Bisallah was also a brigadier. So I was in charge of them. And from there on, when he became the head of state, I was made Nigerian Ambassador to Guinea, Conakry.

Was it a very an unusual posting by your rank then?

No, no, it was not because then I can’t tell exactly my grade in the service, but some of my colleagues were…

But you were rather young, you were under 40?

Yes I was under 40 then. I was posted to Guinea. Nobody wanted to go to Guinea at that time because the conditions were very difficult.

You know, the French abandoned Guinea and Sekou Toure took control as the revolutionary African leader and they had serious economic problems.

In fact, honestly, when I landed in Guinea, I couldn’t believe the capital. Conakry was like a war zone, old houses, poor and dilapidated.

I went to my residence, which is very close, a nice, beautiful building near the sea, next door to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Abdullahi Toure, who was my neighbour, he was then the Minister of Foreign Affairs. And I stayed there and got on very well with President Sekou Toure.

I said I’m a Fulani man. You know, the Guinean politics is competition for power between the Fulani and the Solanke but they didn’t call themselves Solanke. 

Is it Malinke? 

Malinke. So, I got on very well with them. We had a very good friend. Nigeria has a very good friend.

Sekou Toure himself was Fulani?

No. Sekou Toure was Malinke. The Fulani was the former Secretary General of OAU. What’s his name?( Liadi Telli), the first Secretary General of the AU. There was a competition between him and Sekou Toure, eventually, he died in prison.

I could remember I received some instruction from my government to talk to Sekou Toure about Telli, who was then in jail.

Sekou Toure jailed him?

Sekou Toure jailed him on allegation of attempted coup. The Fulani were accused of trying to stage a coup against Sekou Toure, so he was then the most prominent Fulani man. They don’t call them Fulani, they call them Fula. He was the most prominent Fula, and he was jailed.

So, my government instructed me to see what I can do, if we can get him released. But unfortunately, it didn’t work out. Sekou Toure was very angry with me when I raised this issue. But eventually, he passed away in prison.

I was there for quite a while. Suddenly, then, there was a change of government…

In Nigeria?

Nigeria, I think it was…

Obasanjo finished his tenure, and the civilians were coming in, right?

Yes, civilians were coming in. Shehu Shagari visited me and said, I will send you to the Netherlands.

 So, he met you in Guinea?

He met me in Guinea. We organized a state visit for him. We had a very fruitful discussion because we had very strong economic relations with Guinea at the time. We had …that’s the iron ore. We wanted to use the Guinean ore for our Ajaokuta and so many others.

We had the fishing agreement. They have a lot of fish in Guinea. We had a cultural thing. You know, Guinea, Sekou Toure was very strong on culture, African culture, and we were trying to promote that also.

I could recall that when the Nigerian government bought its new naval ship, which was the flagship of the Nigerian Navy from Germany, President Sekou Toure instructed the ship to stop in Guinea to present it.

I presented it to President Sekou Toure. This ship had missiles, a lot of modern armoury on it and it was then led by a former governor of  Adamawa State, Nyako. Admiral Nyako was the commanding officer.

But Sekou Toure, a of heroic figure in African history. But did he do well for his people?

He was more of what you might call a philosopher. He passionately believed in the African Renaissance. Africa should not just absorb colonial ideas, colonial system but Africa should rediscover itself, to assert itself on the international scene.

Sekou Toure is the personalization of African personality. He was then very closely working with President Nkrumah of Ghana to project the African idea of throwing away the colonial domination, the colonial operation, the colonial cultural colonization of Africa. He was an African leader. That was…

But some would say he did it at the expense of his people and the economy?

I think I would agree with that assessment. Sekou Toure spent all his time on politics. I could remember, this will (show) the sort of person he is.

We had a seminar on religion, politics, and revolution and Sekou Toure spoke for ten hours! He was the only one speaking, developing the theme of politics, religion, and revolution.

And at the end of it all, they produce a book, it is a pity the book is in Azare, otherwise I would have shown you a copy of that lecture. It was a strongly committed African revolutionary against colonial domination of Africa, against the French in particular and for the pride of Africa, that’s all.

But then the economy suffered?

The economy suffered a lot because Guinea is a very rich country. They have timber, they have fishing, they have a lot of minerals but he was so committed to this philosophy of revolution and the assertion of the African personality on the world scene. 

How was the ambassadorship  in the Netherlands  after Guinea?

(The) Dutch( are) by nature dull, I hope they wouldn’t hear from me!. They don’t like too much noise, they don’t like too much colour, they like their thing quiet and peaceful, that’s the nature of Holland.

It’s a beautiful country, with excellent level of development, it’s a big contrast to Guinea. Netherlands is one of the most developed countries in Europe.

They have huge economic potential as, Shell is Dutch, it’s one of the largest oil companies in the world, its headquarters is in the Netherlands. Rotterdam is the biggest port in Europe. All the trading ships go to Rotterdam to offload.

So, a lot of countries in Europe depend on Holland. It’s a very small country, it’s a beautiful country, with beautiful landscape, with flowers, with very well educated people.

So, it’s a kind of contrast for you? 

Very much so, very much so. 

From a revolutionary Guinea? 

Very much so, very much so. We enjoyed; in fact I was there for five and a half years. By the time I left, I think I was the Dean of the African Diplomatic Corps.

Therefore, you can see that I got, in fact when I was leaving, the Queen organised a luncheon for me, as a departing ambassador, which was very unusual.

I went there, my wife was then pregnant, she delivered my son in Guinea, in The Hague, that’s the capital. She sent me a bouquet of beautiful flowers when my wife delivered. I’ll never forget that. I always admired that gesture.

Your last ambassadorial posting was the Soviet Union? 

Yes. 

Another country which is very different from Holland?

Very different.

How did that go? 

Soviet Union, I went in, I think around June 1991. I was posted from the headquarters here in Abuja to Moscow, through London.

I landed in Moscow Airport, I was received by my staff and other African ambassadors, which was the tradition in those days. All your colleagues from Africa would come to the airport to meet a newly arrived ambassador.

I was very well received, I had excellent staff working there with me, and we got on very well. The main challenge in Moscow was Ajaokuta.

When I was leaving, the military president, the then head of state, General Babangida said, ‘Jibrin, I’m sending you to Moscow to fix Ajaokuta’, which was a big challenge.

We have invested so much money, the Russians have put up a lot of infrastructure and machinery, and it was so strategic to our economic development.

So, I felt it was a challenge if we could do something about Ajaokuta. Nigeria spent so much money on it, and it has been on the drawing board now for almost over 40 years, 50 years.

So, I took it up seriously, and I had an Ajaokuta office. They sent a staff there as part of my embassy too, and I had a very good defence section too, headed by a general, and my defence attaché in Moscow.

So, we had good relations with the Russians, politically, that was, but just then, on the 20th of August 1991, in Moscow on the 20th of August 1991, we had a coup in Moscow against President Yeltsin who was then the President of the Soviet Union.

Eventually, it resulted in the breakup of the Soviet Union into 15 countries. I was supposed to be accredited to 15 of the Soviet Republics which were now independent, including Ukraine.

I think the only country I presented my credentials to was Ukraine. But I never had the time to visit the other 14.

So, suddenly you found yourself ambassador of about 16 countries?

Sixteen, including Moldovia. I was also Nigerian ambassador to Moldovia, which was far away from Russia. It’s nearer China because it took me seven hours to fly from Moscow to Ulaanbaatar, the capital of Mongolia.

So, President Yeltsin was installed as the new President of the Russian Federation. The other republics all became independent sovereign states, and that’s what is now on the ground.

So, did you manage to crack the Ajaokuta problem?

That’s a good question. I didn’t. Nobody has so far done it. Ajaokuta is still very much on the agenda of the present administration of President Tinubu.

Only three days ago, I saw the minister in charge of Ajaokuta briefing the nation on his trip to China, where he was saying that he has now got into partnership with a Chinese company to come and have a joint venture on Ajaokuta with a view to manufacturing some military equipment or vehicles or armaments through Ajaokuta.

We just hope and pray that that arrangement will work because not long ago, about three years ago, there was a Russian conference in Sochi and President Buhari was there. The Russians also agreed to come back in a partnership to develop Ajaokuta, it didn’t take off.

And now we have the Chinese promising to come in. The minister was saying we should give him three years. I wish he could ask for more.

What do you really think we should do with Ajaokuta?

I’ve said it. I’ve given a lot of interviews on Ajaokuta on national television.

My advice is Ajaokuta cannot be handled by Nigerian government. It’s such a huge, typical Russian project. It’s too big. We don’t have the money now. We cannot take on Ajaokuta. Let us privatize it. The only way to privatize it is to sell it off.

Once the machinery is there, the workers are going to be Nigerian. Nigeria will have nothing to lose but to gain the technology, and the product that the Ajaokuta project will produce.

To think for the government to be running Ajaokuta, to me, it is a tall order. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible but I wish I could live to see the day.

You were Permanent Secretary Foreign Affairs under Gen. Abacha, which was a period when Nigeria really was under a lot of sanctions and isolation.

Absolutely.

How did you cope?

Oh, I had a very colourful minister then. Tom Ikimi was my minister of Foreign Affairs. He was a very dynamic personality. He was very much on the national scene.

He was protecting and supporting the president wholeheartedly. He’s totally committed to the Abacha administration and I was supporting him professionally as a diplomat and we got on very well. We never had any problem.

We had a lot of challenges following the hanging or the shooting of the man in…

Ken Saro Wiwa?

Ken Saro Wiwa. We had the Commonwealth sanctions. We had the sanctions by the European Union. We had the Americans on our head all the time but I got on very well with the American ambassador then and so I was able to cope.

But I was really like sanitizing, supporting the government. Sometimes they will take some extreme position on policies. I will try and calm them down. Sometimes my minister will say, oh, perm-sec you are interfering too much.

I said, look, I’m doing so in the national interest because we diplomats are always trained to think of the national interest rather than the personality or the person you are serving. You always take it higher in your very system as a diplomat to protect the national interest.

Do you think Abacha made mistakes in ignoring world opinion, even Mandela then?

Very much so. I think his problem was that he was so much a nationalist, if I can put it nicely. He believes so much in the Nigerian state, the nation. So he doesn’t want any interference, too much in Nigerian affairs. He’s the head of state, he’s in charge of the country and he can listen to advice.

There were a number of occasions when I had to advise him on many issues and he could listen. Abacha was a very good listener. You can check that from Mustapha, his chief of security.

Abacha was a very good listener, but at the end of the day, he will take decision as a nationalist.

When you were permanent secretary, I think our relationship with Niger was excellent. One would say Nigeria was the one acting like a big brother to Niger?

We got along very well with all the Nigerien heads of state. In fact, I was sent many times to Niger.

In fact, I’m not priding myself, but once I even stopped a coup in Niger. When there was some rebellion by some units of the military, Abacha sent me there to help the president and we helped him to resolve the crisis. We did.

So, how do you feel about what’s going on now between Nigeria and Niger?

I must say I’m very sad about it; that our relation through ECOWAS, not only Nigeria and Niger, but Nigeria and ECOWAS and the three other countries has deteriorated to the level of the three countries, that’s Mali, Burkina Faso and Niger, are withdrawing from such a strong, well-established political union in the sub-region.

ECOWAS has been in existence for 49 years. Very soon we’ll celebrate its 50th anniversary and for these three countries that were totally committed to it to withdraw, I would say it’s unfortunate.

But I believe there is still hope that if we take the initiative as Nigeria, we can still make some amends to the crisis. But it will require a lot of leadership, a lot of determination on the part of ECOWAS and particularly on the part of Nigeria to initiate some agreement, some initiative to improve the situation.

It’s a very serious challenge to our own national interest, for our own economy and for the political union of the West African states. 

Is it reasonable, as we are doing, to insist that nothing will happen except they release Bazoum who has not really resigned yet? 

No, I feel even the policies of ECOWAS have changed in the last few months. Since the last summit we held here in Abuja, the government has opened a quintet group of three ECOWAS member states to talk to the three leaders with a view to reviewing their political programme for a return to democratic governance.

We are hoping that in spite of their withdrawal, ECOWAS will still follow up this excellent option of diplomatic solution. 

Let’s talk about the private ambassador, Dada Jibrin. You are from Katagum, Azare in particular, you are a member of the Katagum Development Association.

No, an emirate council. 

You are the Wakili, right? 

I’m the wakili.  

What do you do in that position? What’s your role?  

That is a good one. I think first and foremost, I am a councilor, advisor to the emir, as a member of the emirate council. We are about 15 of us. Yayale Ahmed, former SGF is a member. Adamu Aliyu, Walin Katagum is a member, so many of our prominent sons are members of the emirate council.

We meet from time to time to advise His Royal Highness the Emir of Katagum about the affairs of the emirate. We also sometimes assist with community development.

Like now, I am the chairman of Katagum Central Mosque. We do assist with funding. We do assist with general administration. We do assist from time to time to improve the quality and the security of such a huge mosque. I don’t know whether you have been to Azare, but we have one of the biggest mosques in Nigeria there in Azare.

And I happen to be the chairman for the day-to-day affairs of the mosque. Even yesterday, I had to handle some of the problems. 

But you are sitting here in Abuja? 

I am sitting here in Abuja but I have a very good secretary who is in Bauchi and Azare handling affairs for me, that’s one.

I also, at one time, was the adviser, what they call chairman of Bauchi Elders Committee to the Governor of Bauchi. I’m the chairman of that committee. Not now, just about a few months ago. I don’t know, they haven’t appointed my successor yet but I do…

Did you resign? 

No, no, it’s a new government after the election. So we wait for a new one.

The governor appointed that committee to advise him? 

Appointed that committee to advice him. 

You’re the first time?

I used to be the chairman of that committee. So I also was a patron of the retired Nigerian ambassadors. All the ambassadors, professional career diplomats, we have an association called ACA.

We advise government from time to time on foreign policy. We do it voluntarily. We do it because we have devoted all our lives in the service of this country on international issues. And we do advise government. And I am one of the patrons, the leaders of that group. 

What else do you do now that you are retired? 

I do a lot of reading. That’s my hobby. 

What do you read? 

I read three papers every day. I read your paper, the Daily Trust, I read This Day and I read The Nation. Once you read these three papers, you will get a good picture of the government.

I’m still keen and interested in governance, that’s my interest, really. I’ve always been interested in foreign policy. And I think I’ll pursue and follow up that interest to the end of my life.

Do you do any other activities, physical, anything to keep yourself fit?

I do some exercise. Of course, to get to my office here, which is my private office, you have to climb three floors and I do it every day. I’ve lost a lot of friends( who cannot) climb the stairs!

You do it yourself every day?

I do it and I enjoy doing it. So I do a bit of exercise. I read a lot. I like current affairs. I follow up. I have a small family of three children. You didn’t ask about my family?

I will. At what point during this busy life did you actually get married?

Oh, I got married just when I was about to go( to England) when I was living in Katsina. 

AS as a teacher?

Straight as a teacher and she’s still there in the house, Aishatu, she’s my wife. We are married now for  almost 60 years. I have only one wife and three children. I lost two children—Muhammad and Zainab.

But I have my children they are there; Ladi who is married to the Dantata family. Lami, who is a lawyer, mostly interested in oil business and Musa, who is a computer guru, is in the Galaxy Computer Government Company.

You’ve never been tempted to have more family?

No, no, I didn’t. At least I haven’t succeeded! 

So, you have no other hobby? I see that you are interested in photography.

Yes, I used to be interested in photography. I did. I’m very good. It is a pity it is not my house, I would have shown you one or two photographs that I took myself. But I was interested in photography since I was in school but I really lost it.

The only game I enjoyed was watching boxing. I like boxing, particularly the heavyweights. I used to follow it religiously; all the fights and the challenges of boxing.

If you ask me who the heavyweight champion of the world is, I know. And when will be the next fight, I will tell you. 

Who is the big one now? 

The big one now, of course, is the Nigerian. What do they call him? He’s in London. What’s his name? There are three of them. There is the Ukrainian, of course, who has been defeated.

What I remember is the Cameroonian?

No, I don’t. 

But there’s this Joshua. 

Joshua is the Nigerian. Yes. And then there is, I think, an American.  I don’t follow boxing now. I used to play hockey then in school. But at the moment, I’m only interested in books and debates and arguments. I am up to date with my job.

At 85, you look very good. You are still active? 

Very active. 

You have an office? 

I have an office. 

You travel? 

I travel.

What do you do to keep healthy? Is there anything that…?

I think, I would only say God’s blessing because really, when you are as old as I am, over 80, you hardly have any control over your health; other than God’s grace and blessing to continue to protect you and give you good health. I think other than that, I have no answers.

I’m happy that my health is good. I don’t have any serious complaint. I guard myself against eating too much salt. I guard myself against carbohydrates. I don’t eat much of meat. And of course, I have my prayers as part of my exercise. That’s all.