EFCC cannot stamp out corruption – Prof. Kasunmu

What is your opinion about the state of the nation?We are going through stormy period in terms of the management of the economy, security issues; in fact it seems nothing works in Nigeria and really the principal blame should fall on government because if there is no leadership then at least followers would not toe […]

What is your opinion about the state of the nation?
We are going through stormy period in terms of the management of the economy, security issues; in fact it seems nothing works in Nigeria and really the principal blame should fall on government because if there is no leadership then at least followers would not toe the way you want them to follow. The problem with Nigeria is one of leadership. Am not talking of present leadership. If we have been fortunate right from the time we got independence in 1960 and we have had true leadership, we would be in a better position than we are now. I am not putting the entire fault on President Jonathan, he is only there for how long now; so the problems we have now are all a cumulative problems. Although he himself is not helping the situation by some of the decisions he is taking.
Should the FG appoint MILADS in addition to extending the state of emergency for Borno, Adamawa and Yobe states?
We had an earlier example when President Obasanjo imposed state of emergency and appointed military administrators (MILADS) for Ekiti and Plateau states. May be what Jonathan should have done was to have installed the MILADS in the three states instead of allowing the three civilian governors to continue, because I don’t see the impact of the creation of state of emergency in those three states in terms of improving the security.
It was the security challenges that made him create the state of emergency and rather than improving, it has gone from bad to worse. An extension on the present basis of democratised state of emergency will not make any difference. So the idea of installing MILADs and giving them the wherewithal could turn things round.
In its bid to combat money laundering, the EFCC has asked lawyers to register with it. Do you support this idea?
I don’t know what evidence the EFCC has. Surely if they have evidence of lawyers being used to launder money for politicians or for fraudsters, I have not seen any lawyer the EFCC is prosecuting for so doing, so this camouflage of asking lawyers to register as a result of combating money laundering has neither substance nor any basis.
In any event, EFCC as an institution has not been an effective body to stamp out corruption or deal effectively with economic crimes either because they lack the will to do this or the competent staff to do it. If you compare the EFCC with similar bodies abroad, I don’t see the basis of comparison because if you look at the FBI and CIA staff and their training, even the Metropolitan Police in UK, most of the police officers here who are recruited into EFCC have no training, even the lawyers that they recruit are not experienced in criminal investigation and so on.
The petroleum subsidy case is a very good example of the inexperience and inability of the EFCC to really investigate and bring evidence out that would lead to conviction. They don’t understand even the basic transactions governing the imposition of fuel subsidy in Nigeria and the entitlement to subsidy.
Most of the charges in court and the investigations which they have made are shallow. I am not aware of any conviction in the fuel subsidy cases since they charged suspects to court.
Should the death penalty be abolished?
Am not sure whether there is any correlation between abolition of death penalty and increase or incidence of crimes punishable by death. I don’t believe that with the abolition of death penalty, there would be a decline in crime. That has not been the experience in many other countries. If you talk in terms of stiff penalty for certain offences, yes I agree but certainly not that death penalty should come in as deterrent.
Recently we heard that judges were suspended by the NJC. Some people have said that the judges should be prosecuted in addition to suspension, do you agree?
If a judge has committed a crime, the remedy or penalty is not suspending him but to prosecute and secure a conviction. The mere fact that you suspend him does not mean that criminal sanction should not follow.
Do you agree that the ongoing national conference is a waste of time?
I don’t know whether I agree or not. I believe that our problem is not the constitution. The problem is with the people running the country. Even if you have a very good constitution but have corrupt politicians, the problem will still be the same. The problem is not the constitution but the attitude of the people and the people who run the system.
Some people have said that the quality of Senior Advocates of Nigeria (SAN) has diminished and the requirement should be tightened. What is your opinion?
I have always been part of the people criticising some of the persons appointed SAN title. But if you look at it objectively, the difference between a very good lawyer and a bad lawyer is clear.
But the one in between is really the problem. If you say A is better suited for appointment than B what is the yard stick for judging A as against B?
The problems which we have are that there has been bending of rules in many cases in terms of the appointment of SAN. What has also created problems is the deliberate attempt to introduce a quota system into the appointment system by balancing the North with the East and the West. In fact now instead of grouping them into geopolitical zones, we now have cases in which we look at the state of origin.
Two or three years ago, there were about six  very good candidates from Ogun State and if you judge objectively, I don’t see why all the six could not have been appointed SAN from Ogun State but because you have to establish a balance between Ogun, Oyo and Lagos states and so on, they picked only one from Ogun State and spread the rest among the other Yoruba states with the result that people appointed from those other states should not have been if you really based it on ability and performance at the Bar.
The other issue is that there was a time when the Bar used to contribute effectively in terms of nomination and selection of SAN but for almost 10 years now the attention has been focused on the support of judges, particularly at the Supreme Court. So if you can get support from the Supreme Court, you are 60 percent through, regardless of what your colleagues at the Bar feel about you.
So to that extent, the quality of SAN has been diluted and of course the quality at the Bar has also fallen. So if the quality has fallen from the Bar and it is from the Bar that you pick SAN, that is why we have this situation.
Is there any provision for the Office of the First Lady in the constitution, especially as the case of the Chibok girls has brought this issue to the fore with statements credited to Mrs. Jonathan?
We all know that there is none and it is not Mrs. Jonathan that is claiming that office or position. Mrs. Abacha, during Abacha’s time, IBB and Yar’ adua then but am not sure Obasanjo’s wife was in the forefront.
We also have the Office of the First Lady in the states. It is not constitutionally recognised but the women have asserted their rights.
The reason it is more prominent now is that the president’s wife has not enhanced that position in terms of her utterances. She has not performed very well in interviews. I really feel that she should be more seen than heard. May be that will bring dignity to the office. I mean when she said “sharing blood”, it took me a long time to understand that she meant “shedding blood.”