Why Boko Haram crisis cannot divide this country-Primate Okoh
As Anglican Primate, you are close to the president. What have you told him concerning Boko Haram issue? The advise we have given to the president is to ensure that the security of the country is paramount, first and foremost, because the business of governance is essentially that of security. If there is no security […]
As Anglican Primate, you are close to the president. What have you told him concerning Boko Haram issue?
The advise we have given to the president is to ensure that the security of the country is paramount, first and foremost, because the business of governance is essentially that of security. If there is no security in the land there are no other things that can take place. So, we advised him, either from the Anglican church or CAN that everything must be done to ensure the country is moved forward and security must be given utmost attention. Every other thing can follow but he must provide security for the ordinary men, women, boys and girls in this country. If they want to go to the market they must be free to do so; if they want to travel to any part of the country they must be free to do so. Anywhere they are, they must be safe irrespective of their religion or what part of the country they come from. In this case the army, navy, Air Force, the police and other security agents should be tasked to the full to ensure that this happens otherwise they can discredit the authority.
Would you then support a dialogue with the Boko Haram group?
It depends on what you mean by dialogue and how we classified Boko Haram. If we classified them as a terrorist group, you find it difficult to have any meaningful dialogue with them but if they have very articulated concerns such as social concerns, poverty, hunger, lack of infrastructure and others then, of course, they are Nigerians. Then government should discuss with them. If it’s about converting this country to Islam or closure of schools, what are you going to negotiate with them for? The rest of the world has been moving forward. If you closed down schools of course, that is retrogression. If you turn the country into Islam you are not solving the problem, you are creating more problems because there will be crisis. So, if they have concern about life, the government should discuss with them.
What they said government should do is to release their members who are in prisons and they also gave some conditions for dialogue. What do you think government should do on this?
There are many people in detention who have not been tried. Those awaiting trial are more than those that have been convicted. I think, government should find a way of expediting action on people who have been held without trial. It’s not fair to keep people for two to three years without trial and eventually if they are tried and sentenced it’s like starting afresh. So, if people are arrested government should ensure their speedy trial even if it’s a tribunal they should try them and free those who are to be freed and punish those who are to be punished.
For me, talks must have an objective. For you to talk to me you must have a purpose. If government is looking for peace and the group we are describing as terrorist presents a reasonable basis for discussion, why not discuss with them? But my concern is if the discussion we are talking about is all about dictation that unless this is done or that is done that is not going to happen. That again means an opportunity to continue to have cheap blackmail on the government. So, for me, if government thinks they present a reasonable agenda for peace in this country they can discuss with them.
Do you think spending over one trillion on security is wise?
It’s not too much because this issue we are talking about concerns security. It’s about people being killed. As long as we have some recalcitrant set of people somewhere who will be non-conformists, who will be unamendable to discipline, then we have no choice than to provide for that security. Even if we negotiate, we still need such budget for security because we are not talking about armed robbers, we are not talking about kidnappers, we are not talking about militants, all these people are predators to societies.
Do you share the position of CAN on Boko Haram?
The CAN president, in the first place, did not say tit-for-tat as has been rumoured. What he said, because I was present there, was that Christians should defend themselves. Now, that does not say tit-for-tat because what I understand by that is that you blind one of my eyes. I blind one of yours, that is not defending yourself. Defend yourself means, if you can do it, not to allow anybody come and kill you. Make adequate arrangement for your security. If it means running away, if that is your defence run away; if it means call the police, call them; if it means gathering your people together to stand against it, stand against. It’s not tit-for-tat because tit-for-tat has wider implications.
We have heard cases of Christians being arrested in Bauchi, Kaduna in connection with bombings by Boko-Haram. What is your feeling on this?
I’m not aware of that. Christians arrested for bombing a church? I will need that to be substantiated. I think what you are saying is a very remote and isolated issue, if it ever happened. I’m not aware of it. That a Christian will dress up, carry a bomb to a church and blow it up? Unless, of course, he is acting for somebody or a group of people, but we do know that it’s not the predominant situation in the country.
Are your church members moving from any part of the country to another part say from the north to any other places?
You mean as a result of the order given by Boko-Haram? NO, we cannot move because of that, but there was an instruction given to them at the initial stage that Southerners should move to the South and Northerners should move to the North and people complied but now they are beginning to see that Nigerians want to live together. Even those who moved earlier to their regions are beginning to go back to their businesses. Except in areas like Yobe and Borno that people are not in a hurry to go back, we have had cases where people packed their things in trailers and open vehicles moving from the north to the south en mass and this means a serious threat to the unity and security of the country.
What did you say at your church members on that time?
Well, those in areas we called flashpoints have to relocate. For instance, our Bishop at Damaturu has relocated because they were going from house to house killing people and our Cathedral there has been destroyed. So, it will not be helpful to tell the man to wait there to be killed. That is part of the defence we are talking about. Life is the first principle, if It’s taken nothing is left. You have to be a live to be able to contend for anything the following day. Four out of the people that were killed in the market sometimes ago in Borno were our members. One of them was a 300 level student at the University of Maiduguri. So, when you see such things, it’s not theory. Do you know what it takes to bring a child up to 300 level in a university only to be slaughtered. Why? He is serving the country. Even if you don’t have tears in your eyes it will come.
What do you preach to your congregation in this kind of atmosphere?
We are not naïve in looking at this situation. Before Boko Haram came to the scene we were living together, eating together, reasoning together. In fact, there was a very high level of religious interaction in Nigeria, particularly during festivals. During Christmas you will see Muslims, during Sallah you will also see Christians going over to the other side, sharing everything was in order. We lived together happily. Even in some families you find Christians and Muslims living together without any disagreement and if at all there is any it has never generated to what we have at the moment. So, what we tell our people, even they know without telling them is that not every Muslim is a slaughter hungry person. There are Muslims that are very unhappy over what is happening because, take it or leave, it is a setback to the country, is a set back to the north. If all the strangers moved away from the north, their economy will go flat because you do need visitors, strangers just as Nigeria is asking for foreign investors for the country. You also need people from other parts of the country to come and participate in the economy of your locality to also invest their money in your locality so as to grow and prosper and create employment for your people. But now, states like Yobe and Borno are no-go areas. If you send youth corpers there, they will refuse to go. When they transfer workers from the civil service, they will find a way and say they will not go. Who will then develop the state? This raises another question, what is Boko Haram looking for? This is why, for me, the issue is not only about religion, northern political elites must stand up. If they truly love the north they must say to them – you cannot destroy this region because this is the region where our children will grow, gain employment, marry and do many other things. So, if they allow a section of people, because I believe Boko Haram is minority, to destroy the economy in the north, they have destroyed the north as an entity.
If you were a northern elite what would you do?
It’s not an individual affair. I will work with other people. For instance, the governors, Muslim leaders, the Emirs, can collaborate and form a formidable force. There is no how Boko Haram can succeed against the governors, the emirs, political leaders and so on. The fact is that these people did not come into it in time. It was after the Kano major slaughter that they knew this thing is going everywhere and it seems nobody is safe. But if they had come into it earlier and said this thing is a bad signal, by now it would have subsided. But all is not lost; leaders who have concerns for the north, whether Muslim or Christians, can come together in a collaboration to find solution to it, otherwise what should be bothering them now should not be their guns but desert encroachment. Desert encroachment is real. If you are coming from UK and you are in the plane, you don’t see any difference any longer between Kano and Niger Republic. If you go to other countries, what they now have is artificial forest. They no longer have natural forest. Why are we not busy planting trees to curb desert encroachment? If Yobe, Borno, Kano, Katsina considered desert encroachment as a major concern, government can employ people, forest workers to start working against the tides of the encroachment that is marching very fast upon us. It will create employment for people.
There is this fear that the incessant attacks may divide us along religious line?
No, No, No. We are so intermingled. And in any case, not many people share Boko Haram ideology. You have to be convinced about something before you fight for it. If you don’t believe in Boko Haram thing you will not take your life for it. There are very many people who believe what these people are doing is completely wrong. And what will anybody gain if you destroy Nigeria? Will it further the cause of Boko Haram because whether Boko Haram likes it or not is feeding from Nigerian money. Its buying its clothes from Nigerian, even the AK 47s they are carrying are from Nigerian money. If the country is destroyed everybody will be homeless, are we going to run to Ghana and will they even accommodate us for one day?
Do you support the proposal for a ministry to be created for northern Nigeria?
No. I will not support that. One, the proposal is probably made on the assumption that poverty is more in the north, which is not correct. If you go to many places in the south, for instance go to Anambra, everybody is trading, buying and selling just to survive. Go to the Niger Delta you will see rots everywhere. Is that riches? Will you call that wealth? If you create ministry for northern region what is it going to tackle? Will it be able to tackle almajiri? Is it going to tackle general backwardness in education? Do you have to do that? The almajirai issue, is educational issue for me. I support almajirai education, but I do not support it as a separate body because there is no influence. I will prefer almajirai education through the UBE because as it stands today they are being trained alone. A situation where you create a type of education for a group of people their education will be very narrow. Before they can constitute a material for national development it will take time.
Do you support government funding of churches as Mr president demonstrated recently?
Why did you support government building almajiri school? In any case almajiri is not just a social thing it’s a religious thing. Almajiri is a religious group. The only thing is that they are dedicated to Islamic education only. Now the church you are talking about, government did not build it. The church you are talking about is not bigger than this place, is very small. The president did not build it. He only renovated it, unless people are against free donation to people. And this is not the first time that someone in power is building a mosque or donating to a mosque. For me, I see no reason for the uproar.
People are talking of a national conference to discuss Nigeria. Do you believe there is the need for us to talk as people of a nation?
With these kind of frustrations here and there, I think there is need for us to sit down and talk. It’s true we have elected members of the Senate for them to talk for us but we discover now that the scope of what is on ground now is beyond these people because they have no go areas. People are saying we did not discuss before we were merged together by the white people maybe there is need now for us to discuss. Something like truth commission, maybe if we reenact our purpose of being together now it will help us and the unity of the country. For me, I think a form of discussion is necessary. Whatever name it’s called, whether its national discussion or regional discussion, whether its sovereign national conference that some people are afraid of but talking together will not harm us but if we cannot do it at the national level, we can do it at geo-political zone level. Let us know the aims and objectives of every region, let the people in the House of assembly go and meet their people to discuss then at a point we will all gather together to agree on how to live together.
The problem facing the country today is corruption, almost everybody is involved in it. What do you think we can do to curb it?
When something is happening in Nigeria they don’t look at it from the point of corruption, they look at it from where the person comes from. They even under play it depending on where the person comes from. When they say someone is corrupt they will say it’s because of where he comes from that is why they say he is corrupt. So, for me, if we tackle the problem of acceptance, the problem of unity and believe in the centre to which all of us hold allegiance, issue of corruption will be secondary. What is happening now is that those we call our leaders are pulling down the centre by creating their own centre of allegiance. And as long as there is no centre to which we all hold allegiance, we are going nowhere.
Former Delta state governor, James Ibori was jailed 13 years in the UK for money laundering offence. How do you feel?
Naturally, I feel very bad as human being. I wish it is a situation that could be avoided. What I mean is that such a thing had not happened. A man was talking about how corruption has been allowed to grow in our country. People are being tried but their trial has never reached a logical conclusion because lawyers are in a hurry or EFCC is in a hurry, ICPC is in a hurry. Why is that we have never carried any investigation, prosecution to any logical conclusion? Why are there no results such as the one now in the UK? That is why people are thinking the man is unfortunate because he fell into the hands of the white people. Not just his people, there so many people who are sentimentally attached to the man. So, it’s not as if the man is a monster to the people of the South-South even in the politics of this country if the man comes back and says he wants to contest he will still be allowed.
We have churches everywhere yet our problems are getting bigger. What do you think is responsible?
It is not only Church, some are churches, some are not but ocultic groups whose philosophy of operation is different from that of the churches but all of them are classified as churches. They even use Christian names but they have their objectives. I don’t know what happens in Islam but I think there is this kind of deregulation everywhere. Where you talk about the church, Islam or African religion there is some kind of deregulation going on everywhere and there is no power to restrain anybody from this kind of thing, we can’t do it.