Yar’adua: We can’t afford another civil war – Alhaji MM Abdul

I thank God. I thank God because God has done wonders for me like any other persons, so I thank Him and I remain grateful to him. What was it like growing up or going to school in your time? I had my primary education at Ankpa. In those days, the schools were not many, […]

I thank God. I thank God because God has done wonders for me like any other persons, so I thank Him and I remain grateful to him.

What was it like growing up or going to school in your time?

I had my primary education at Ankpa. In those days, the schools were not many, we hadjunior primary, we had senior primary schools, and then I went to Saint Boniface Secondary School, Idah. From there I took entrance examination and went to Saint Michael College, Aliade. There I met so many people. In those days you didn’t have so many people in a class. We were 36 but by the time we finished we became 19.

What happened to the remaining students?

What happened was that, at the end of every session, there was what we called weeding exam, so if you didn’t do well, you have to go. If your performance was below average you had to leave and there was nothing anybody could do about that.

With the quality of education in those days, where only few selected and privileged people made it to school, how could people still performed below average?

Well, it could be that bad. What if the pass mark was 60 and you had 10, what can the school do about that? May be there could be other better things that engaged their time.

What did some of them go into after then?

I wouldn’t know.

You have not seen any of them since then?

Oh, I ran into some of them, some carpenters, some clerks in ministries, while others went into menial jobs.

The 19 of you that graduated, what are some of them doing now?

Well, we have some who joined the army but they are now late Colonel Agada was one of them; you have Air Vice Marshal Alam. We left the school at the same time. Then, today you have Justice Aloysius Katsina –Alu, the Chief Justice of Nigeria (CJN). We were in the same class and we also finished the same year.

So, how was he (Katsina-Alu) in college?

I used to remember this. He was sitting in front of me in the college and one thing that I always remember was that there was a mistaken identity when the tutor mistook my name for another person’s. That one was bearing Musa, just like me, but unfortunately that one had a very bad result from one home work and the teacher thought I was the one. He started abusing me and saying all sort of things, but, in those days, you could not jump up and say I am not the one. I sat down and I was just looking at the teacher, and suddenly, Alu (CJN) stood up and said, “Father, he is not the one” the Father kept quiet and then said “who is the one” Alu then pointed at the other Musa and the Father apologized to me and turned his attention to the other Musa.

Another thing was that in those days you could be flogged on your buttocks and there was nothing like underwear, and I don’t know what I did and I was flogged. While that flogging was going on, Alu (CJN) told the principal that the punishment for the offence was not up to that. The principal looked at him and asked why he should make such comment. He brought him out and flogged him, too.  What I am trying to say, in essence, is that he always stood for justice. So, I am not going to be surprised the way he will handle the Judiciary and pursue justice.

Was he really very vocal, because, from your account, he appeared to be outspoken in your days?

He was very quiet, decent and reserved. He was not troublesome at all.

But since his appointment have you seen him?

Oh yes, I have met him.

What did you tell him?

First of all, I was happy, I feel elated because he was my classmate, and I told him to keep the flag flying.

Why didn’t you become a Reverend father as you attended a Catholic school?

Probably, I didn’t have the calling to be a reverend father. You know, it has to do with a calling.

How do you know you didn’t have the calling?

Well, like I said, I was doing well in Religious Knowledge. I still remember I used to receive prizes in our CRK. I can tell you all the missionary journeys of Saint Paul, I can tell about the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, even as a Muslim.

So how was it like, a Muslim in Catholic college?

No ill feeling at all, there was no discrimination.

But you were made to come for the morning mass and other prayers?

Yes, we were saying all the prayers.

Did your parents complain?

No.  They didn’t complain at all.

Why didn’t they complain?

Oh, my father was very understanding.

Was he not afraid that you were going to be converted to Christianity?

The problem of conversion was of the mind. I know all the songs and many things about Catholic. If you are not called, there is nothing anybody can do to convert you.

When you went to King’s

College in Lagos, there were few of you from the North. How was it like?

There was no problem, but naturally, because it was the first time people from the North went in, there was a feeling that we were not intelligent enough to excel. But it didn’t come out that way. Many of them that we met there are our great friends today.

Did you prove them wrong in terms of performance?

The need for proof didn’t arise because I became the house captain and it was clear that what those from the south could do, those from the North could also do.

Your generation took over the leadership of this country after the Balewas. Do you agree with that sir?

No no…We were still students after the coup so I won’t say our generation took over from the Balewa generation. The only thing I would say is that that government helped to build up our generation. Another thing was that very many of us were involved in the civil war, particularly those that went into the army.

At what point did we get things wrong in this country?

The problem with this country is that, even the very way we got independence was on the platter of gold. The struggle was not that of imprisoning people or killing people like we had in other African countries, like Ghana where Kwame Nkuruma was jailed, in Kenya, Jomo Kenyata was jailed, in Tanzania, Julius Niyere jailed, in Zambia, Kenneth Kauda jailed and, of course, you also know the story of Nelson Mandela of South Africa and others, like in Guinea.
But in our own country, it was a kind of gradual and gentle transition. So you can see that we got it on the platter of gold, and I think, that must be responsible for the indiscipline or certain behaviours that we have in Nigeria today. We got things cheap; therefore any time you want to correct people would react and feel that you are being difficult. So, to answer your question, I think the missing link of real struggle could be one of the factors responsible for our lackadaisical attitude towards governance or genuine patriotism today.

What are the objectives of Unity Forum? Why do you choose to be in Unity Forum and not PDP, ANPP, AC or other high profile organisations?

If we are talking about Unity Forum, I think I just have to talk about the group and the fact that people came from different political parties to form the group means that they have different ideas on how to move the country forward. If you belong to a party, may be, the ideology of the party or its manifestoes are not implemented, may be you are in PDP and they said they will rule for 60 years and you don’t believe that, or you are in ANPP and they keep fighting always, but you don’t want to leave the party or you are in another party and you felt you have been rigged out, then we said lets come together to think about Nigeria. So, in Unity Forum, we meet to think out how the country should be governed. We say these things, not for saying sake but for the government at all levels to hear them and take those that are useful in advancing the country.
Therefore, the forum is not against anybody, is not against any political party or government, but if we see that government has come up with any policy that is wrong, we will say it is wrong and if it is right we will say it is right.

How do you do it, do you send Memos to government or through media?

What we do is to meet, get our views on issues. When the governments contact us, we give them but if nobody contacts us, we pass our message through the media. Some times the National Assembly even makes reference to some of our positions on certain national issues.
For instance, when people were doing adverts through internet or e-mail, we opposed it and we called the government to advertise publicly because not many Nigerians have access to email or internet. The federal government directed that it should be done publicly and we were happy. But what we intend doing from now is to also convey our view straight to the government. We shall tell the ministers what we find wrong in any ministry too.

For over 40 days that the president has been away, there is serious stalemate on what should be done and what should not be done and so on. What is the Forum’s position on this?

You know we have said it so many times in other public places. This matter is constitutional, there is no way anybody can tell the president anything unless is via the constitution. Either the Federal Executive Council says the president can no longer perform and informs the National Assembly, or the president himself decides on his own to say he can no longer perform on the account of ill-health, and that he is stepping aside or asks his deputy to act. The provisions are there in the constitution and there is just nothing anybody can do beyond that. You may say some lawyers have gone to court, yes; they are exercising their constitutional right.

The president has not come up to say that, but many things are going wrongly. Were it not for the Attorney-General of the federation and Minister of Justice, one of the arms of government would have stayed without leadership as we are talking. For how long are we going to depend on luck? 

Some us are lucky to have been born before independence, we saw the struggle for independence, we saw the independence itself, we saw the civil war and thereafter, and we have seen different kinds of government since 1960 to date. But one thing I have observed is that Nigeria is always lucky because each time we have serious problem at hand, God, in his infinite mercies, would intervene and bail us out.
But having said this, what is becoming so worrisome is the role of our leaders. In those days, I know of the north in particular, when an issue cropped up, the leaders would meet and come up with a way out. But, today, you no longer have something like that. They are in disarray and, at the same time, they cannot even point at anyone and say come and lead us. In those days they could come together and come up with solutions.  At a time like this, one would expect our leaders to come together and say this is the way forward. Though there is a constitution, this is a mature approach to constitutional matter, because we cannot afford another civil war or any act of disintegration any more. Unless we do that, there is no other way than following the constitution.

The perception is that some of these leaders are depending on government for survival, hence they could not come out openly to say the truth. How do you react to that?

That is the general feeling, but let me put it this way. How could an individual getting to 80 years could not come out openly to say his mind because of what he is getting from government? What are you still looking for in life? That is why we say our leaders are failing us and people are feeling the same way you feel. But I am of the view that it is very wrong for any leaders to behave that way. What is there, may be young people like you that can talk of three square meal, but most of us cannot because of our age. By the time you take a cup of tea or a glass of water it can sustain you for a whole day. What are they after? I think, at a particular stage in life, one should begin to think of other generations which one is leaving behind? So we call on all our leaders to be able to come together and salvage this country. We should stand against anything that would lead to the disintegration of this country.

Apart from the Yar’adua crisis, we are facing another major crisis, which is the United States saying that Nigeria is on the watch list of countries where terrorism can take place. They have not said we are a terror-sponsor state, but they are placing us on the watch list because of this Faruk saga. What do you have to say on this?

I think the United States government is unfair to Nigeria. We were good ally of US and, for them to have placed us on watch list like countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and others, is very unfortunate. I think international politics demands that there must be a kind decorum in policy in the interest of all the nations.  What happened to the Shoe man who was carrying bomb between Britain and US, why was Britain was not listed on the terrorist nations? Is it because we are black? And, in any case, the boy involved was never trained in Nigeria. He was always in the UK, US, Yemen and he even schooled in the UK. Information that the US has on the boy, I doubt much if Nigeria has such information. I believe our foreign affair minister has done very well by calling the American Ambassador to Nigeria to protest. It is a wise diplomatic approach and we do hope that within a short period, we will be delisted. This country has never been known for a such thing and it has never been in our character to do such a thing.

Another thing central to constitution review is state creation and there are series of agitations across the country. What is your view about state creation?

You might have read my view in some places. I am an economist by training and there is what we call advantages of economies of scale. I will support creation of states if it will foster development, or if the proposed states are viable. I said elsewhere that if I had my way I will create only six states for Nigeria. When we have 40 or 36 states, they are only there for political gains. There will be many permanent secretaries, commissioners, special advisers and special assistants and all these to the detriment of capital projects that would develop the area and benefit the people. To my mind, the states people are proposing, including most of the existing states, are not viable. How many of the existing states can survive without coming to Abuja for monthly allocation? A state should be able to sustain itself with or without aids. In those days our resources were limited but people were able to feel the impact.